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shelly:

[nq:1]And how do you feel about that, knowing that YOUR actions led to what happened.[/nq]
you don't think that the neighbors had any responsibility to keep their known aggressive dog safely contained?
[nq:1]If YOU had stuck to the original agreement, to be sure the other dogs were NOT outside before letting your own out, this wouldn't have happened.[/nq]
but there was no actual agreement. Cate has wisely made a practice of not taking Orson out while the other dogs were outside. it's something that has never been discussed between the two parties, though.

shelly
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shelly:

[nq:1]That certainly wasn't clear from your first post. Your story seems, to me anyway, to be be subtlely changing as you get more support from the regulars. Interesting.[/nq]
i think that's unfair. FWIW, i thought from the first that Cate's neighbors were 100% responsible, both legally and morally. i'm sorry, but if a person allows their known dog-aggressive dog to attack another dog, on the other dog's property, that person is responsible.
as the owner of a dog-aggressive dog, i simply cannot understand how i could hold someone else responsible even if there had* been a formal agreement! if my dog attacked their dog on *their property.
[nq:1]and you both were aware that the lack of adequate fencing was a problem.[/nq]
yes, but Cate's dog never left her property. Cate may have a moral responsibility to fence her yard totally, to insure Orson's safety, but that does not mitigate the neighbors' responsibility in keeping their dogs safely contained. their dogs were demonstrably not trustworthy in an unfenced yard, so it was their responsibility to see that they were properly contained, not Cate's.
[nq:1]Since now you're saying you didn't have a spoken agreement, but an 'understanding', I still think you're at fault for not being sure their dogs weren't outside before you let yours out.[/nq]
so, if one of your dogs got loose and attacked a neighbor's dog on their property, it would be the neighbor's fault, not yours?
[nq:1]Which I find curious, since now you're making it clear that they aren't stellar neighbors, you knew their dog was aggressive, etc. Seems under those circumstances you would have made damned sure those dogs weren't out. [/nq]
*** happens, even to the most careful of people. this was bound to happen, eventually, not because of Cate's lack of diligence, but because of the neighbors' lack of
responsibility. an unconfined, dog-aggressive dog will harm another animal sooner or later. unfortunately, Orson was on the losing end of that equation.

shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com /

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shelly:

[nq:1]it's her own freaking yard with no fence between her property and that of a dog aggressive dog. i don't ... very well, especially dogs as untrained as this one seems to be. i think the responsibility belongs on both ends.[/nq]
i'm sorry, but i absolutely disagree. i lived for years with a dog-aggressive dog in a house with no fenced yard. my dog was always on leash and never* had an opportunity to attack another animal, not even the feral cats next door. if he *had managed to harm another animal, it would be my responsibility, not the owners of that animal, whether or not they knew my dog was aggressive. and, if it happened off my property, i would've been legally and morally responsible, whether or not they might have forestalled the attack in some manner. as long as they're legally going about their business, i have no right to allow my dog to attack their animal, and they have no responsibility to take extraordinary measures to keep their pets safe from my dog.

shelly
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shelly:

[nq:1]if your dog is off leash and your front yard is not fenced then yeah, i think you're partially to blame too. both owners should be using leashes in this situation.[/nq]that's untrue where i live. i have a right to enjoy my own property, period. fence or no fence, my dogs are allowed to be on my property as long as they stay on my property. fenced or unfenced, alien dogs do not have a right to be on my property. if a dog comes onto my property and attacks my dog, it is not my responsibility. if a dog comes onto my property and is attacked or killed by my dogs, it is also not my responsibility.

the latter has happened, and i'll be damned if i would've offered to pay for the damages. i felt badly for the poor dog. i took him home and informed the owner of what happened. but, i would not, and did not, take any responsibility whatsoever for their dog being harmed. if you don't want your dog harmed, or you don't want it to harm others, then you keep it safely contained. period.

shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com /

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shelly:

[nq:1]if both yards are unfenced, both dogs* should be leashed when outside. that's *both*, in case you missed it again. *both, meaning the aggressor as well. thereby keeping the aggressor out of Cate's yard and avoiding the entire situation. am i making any sense here?[/nq]
no. if Orson is under Cate's control, he does not have to be leashed while on Cate's property. period. in fact, in some cities, he would not have to be on leash in public, even, as long as he was under Cate's voice control.

shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com /

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shelly:

[nq:1]it just seems like it would be an unfair request to ask the neighbor to always leash their dog and Cate to not bother, if they share an unfenced border.[/nq]
the leash is irrelevant. both parties need to keep their dogs safely contained. Cate is able to do so with voice control. the neighbors obviously need something a little more concrete, like a physical fence or a leash.

shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com /

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shelly:

[nq:1]Everyplace I've lived that didn't required leashes was sufficiently rural that discharge of firearms was legal. So it was never a problem.[/nq]
i don't do guns, and i don't kill dogs.

shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com /

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shelly:

[nq:1]Aside from the fact that Orson didn't go off his property and the other dog did, the fact that one is dog aggressive and the other is not makes the request very fair.[/nq]
agreed. but, when did fairness enter into it? and, also, why should the manner in which the neighbors maintain their dogs be predicated on how Cate cares for hers? that makes no sense to me.

shelly
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http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com /

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Alison:

[nq:2]Just read some more of your posts. You do have part of itfenced. Sorry ![/nq]
[nq:1]It's hard to explain without an extremely boring post, but it's impossible to fence the area directly around our back ... drivewayand our 2-car garage to another location on our property. Which is less than a fifth of an acre. Cate>>[/nq]
Oh I see, that's a bit of a headache. I hope your neighbours pay out for
the vets bills.
Alison

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RE: A lesson and a poll page 20

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