[nq:2]Certainly Mini-Aussies have their share, [nq:2]Ah, but miniature schnauzers are, [nq:1]Herding instinct

Judy:

[nq:2]Ah, but miniature schnauzers are already less terrier-like and are more calm and affectionate.[/nq]
[nq:1]That doesn't even matter that much - that was part of Sandy's bravura display of lousy argumentation. The issue is not that "white" == "nice," it's that you can't select for one attribute alone and expect nothing else to be affected.[/nq]
That dat.
Sandy did allow that she didn't accept it but still went on to say that in the Belyaev foxes that more white = less reactive. Which she thought might be a good thing to tone down that terrier personality. I was saying (at least I thought I was) that less reactive wasn't a concern anyway.

And from what I can see of that website, your point is pretty well illustrated. It would indicate that by breeding for one attribute (white) that you create miniature schnauzers with lousy structure and coat. And we can't address the health issues that might or might not also be affected since she doesn't do health testing.
Judy

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Sandy in OK:

[nq:2]A well bred working Aussie may fit into a dog-savvy ... The rest we see in rescue (if they are lucky)[/nq]
[nq:1]Your English teachers should have their ears boxed. Truly. Your reading comprehension is abominable. Please note that I said many pet homes. Not all, many. That would be the dog-savvy portion of the pet dog owning public.[/nq]
And "many" will not.

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Judy:

[nq:1]Herding instinct is a booger. There are so many different elements that go into making a useful dog - and then you have to have the willingness to take training and take directions from humans or you still don't have a dog.[/nq]
And yet when they tested standard schnauzers - who hadn't been intentionally bred for herding for generations - they found those elements still mostly intact. Which is how they got approved for herding. I only know a few who are just now getting started at herding but from what I hear, they are kicking butt.
Judy

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Sandy in OK:

[nq:2]Certainly Mini-Aussies have their share of less-than-careful breeders.[/nq]
Shelly, hon, I'm not the one with a reading comprehension issue.

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Melinda Shore:

[nq:1]Which she thought might be a good thing to tone down that terrier personality.[/nq]
So much for commitment to type.
[nq:1]And from what I can see of that website, your point is pretty well illustrated. It would indicate that by ... we can't address the health issues that might or might not also be affected since she doesn't do health testing.[/nq]
Well, here's where I think Sandy has a point: I think that some rigidity about breeding practices is unnecessary. However, I think that she picked one of the worst possible illustrations of that (she'd have been better off going with a working kennel, if she could figure out where to find one) and her crappy rhetorical skills led her to make a bunch of incorrect arguments. But it seems to me that the pet market is exactly where you do want a certain degree of rigidity precisely because the dogs aren't otherwise being vetted (so to speak) in working events, conformation showing, and so on.

Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed)

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

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Melinda Shore:

[nq:1]And yet when they tested standard schnauzers - who hadn't been intentionally bred for herding for generations - they found ... know a few who are just now getting started at herding but from what I hear, they are kicking butt.[/nq]
There are a few Siberians doing herding. I gather they're not really all that great about it. You know the standard joke - round the sheep up and eat them. Anyway ...
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed)

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

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Shelly:

[nq:2]Your English teachers should have their ears boxed. Truly. Your ... be the dog-savvy portion of the pet dog owning public.[/nq]
[nq:1]And "many" will not.[/nq]
What is your point (I'm leaving the discussion intact, so you can reconsider what you've written)? That Aussies should be dumbed down to fit that market? I think that's an ***-backwards plan. Good pets are a natural by-product of responsible breeding. For those folks who are not even suited to those particular dogs, another breed or maybe even a stuffed dog would be the appropriate choice, not expecting breeders to destroy an existing breed to suit the needs of the lowest common denominator.

For example: I mentioned that I covet Boerboels, but they are too much dog for me. If I really, really wanted one, I'd look for a responsible breeder, and I'd talk to her about my needs. Perhaps she occasionally has the odd dog who doesn't quite measure up, but who would make a good companion for me? What I would not do is go to some crappy-assed "breader" who had watered down the breed and who was purposely creating out-of-standard dogs for folks like me.

Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
It is never too late to give up our prejudices.
Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

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Sandy in OK:

[nq:2]One is as much "on point" as the other. And ... things than not surviving the first few days of life.[/nq]
[nq:1]Yes, because the world needs more Aussies so badly that it's acceptable to breed sick and dying puppies. ACCIO RPD* VOMIT BAG!![/nq]Gee what a predictable response. I could have said the "expected thing" but instead I gave an opinion on a question asked. No, the world doesnt' need sick and dying puppies. That's why one of the hard jobs of breeders is to do their best to assure that defective puppies are humanely euthanized. I don't think they should be sending out a cleft palate puppy, an eyeless puppy, a two legged puppy, a puppy with PDA or a liver shunt, or its guts hanging outside its body.

Those are issues that can happen no matter what color dogs you breed. Even if you research and health test. You can also lose puppies for a number of reasons and you can also lose the ***. Breeding isn't easy and it isn't for sissies. By defective, I mean an animal with a seriously compromising health issue. Not an animal who isn't the preferred color according to the breed standard.

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Shelly:

@panix3.panix.com:
[nq:1]There are a few Siberians doing herding. I gather they're not really all that great about it. You know the standard joke - round the sheep up and eat them. Anyway ...[/nq]
Was it Cindy who said she lived near some herding Boxers? I would have paid money to see that. I wonder how the cows (I think) handled the boinging.

Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
Let each man exercise the art he knows.
Aristophanes, Wasps

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RE: "Don't touch my bone" page 15

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