@panix3.panix.com: [nq:1]You'd win big maybe-you're-not-as-stupid-as-you-seem, [nq:1]No, you certainly haven't, you, [nq:1]What a

Sandy in OK:

[nq:1]No, you certainly haven't, you slow-witted sloven. >[/nq]
What a lovely, intelligent and relevant arguement. Your debate teacher must be proud.

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Melinda Shore:

[nq:1]What a lovely, intelligent and relevant arguement. Your debate teacher must be proud.[/nq]
At least I'm not as dumb as a sack of freakin' hair. That you focus on the insults and ignore the arguments is consistent with your failure to attend to the arguments presented without the insults. Doesn't matter whether there are insults present or not - you just continue ignoring what people are saying to you and constructing strawman arguments. I figure that, and your idiotic and transparent attempt to shut down discussion by invoking PETA, is because you're just plain not very bright.
You'd win big maybe-you're-not-as-stupid-as-you-seem points if you could, for example, explain why you're so hot to defend breeding for color in miniature schnauzers at the same time that you're nattering on about the EVIL AKC and how bad it is that some Aussie breeders aren't paying attention to working ability. How's that work, exactly?
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed)

Sending more troops into a war is properly called an "escalation."

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Sandy in OK:

[nq:2]No, my "point" was that there are incredibly few Miniature ... irresponsible, but simply that OFA isn't that useful for them.[/nq]
[nq:1]Diane Blackman has made the same (good) point several times in these waters. Different breeds tend to develop different "cultures" ... don't test, even when there's a known, testable problem. Breeds where testing is uncommon aren't necessarily healthier than tested breeds.[/nq]
I'd agree. And sometimes there appear to be no problems because there's not statistical data. For instance, while the miniature schnauzers appear to be 100% normal for all the tests except dysplasia, 100% of one dog is . . . what?
[nq:2]I don't see where they register for urinary disease. PRA ... get absolutely no more information by listing it with OFA.[/nq]
[nq:1]You may not get more information about your own dog, but you sure as hell can get more information on ... OFA makes available are an ENORMOUS step forward, if breeders and owners are smart enough to take advantage of it.[/nq]
Of course, mostly people (in my breed at least) tend to send in their "normals" The ACVO vet hands you the paperwork and you send it in. If your vet says the dog is dysplastic and you believe him, many people aren't sending those xrays off to OFA. And if they do, they can request that a rating of dysplastic is not made public. So it helps the statistics, but is not actually disclosure. Still, you are right. If I can figure out where I put that form on my spayed ***, I'll send it in.

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Shelly:

@panix3.panix.com:
[nq:1]You'd win big maybe-you're-not-as-stupid-as-you-seem points if you could, for example, explain why you're so hot to defend breeding for color ... AKC and how bad it is that some Aussie breeders aren't paying attention to working ability. How's that work, exactly?[/nq]
I woke up in the middle of the night and had a thought about that as I was trying to go back to sleep. I think Sandy is unconcerned about breeding for things like temperament and health and structural soundness in non-working breeds. She's happy to have non-working breeds thoroughly and irrevocably *** up because those breeds are irrelevant to her.

Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
Color is the place where our brain and the universe meet. Paul Klee

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Sandy in OK:

[nq:1]Reka was badly dysplastic. I sent hers in, and requested that it be made public. The thing is, I knew she was dysplastic. Once that knowledge is known, how many people want to PAY to have this disclosed?[/nq]
Not many. I know of a breeder who threatened to sue a puppy buyer and the person who maintained an open database for the breed - for disclosing the fact that their dog was epileptic.

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Robin Nuttall:

[nq:1]I'm not big on show dogs for me. I don't try to tell other people what they should want. I ... breed tend to be controversial. You love them or hate them. Since it is not my breed, I do neither.[/nq]
The numbers sort of gross me out, but it goes far beyond that. She's militant that hip dysplasia is not a genetic disease, and that no dog of hers could possibly have it. All due to diet (studies have proven beyond a doubt that it's genetic). When her dogs have issues, she blames the owner and tells them it's the diet.
She singlehandedly changed the coat of the GS in the United States. It should be a harsh terrier coat. It is now a soft curly coat.

To me, none of this is the mark of a responsible breeder, especially the numbers. Because, frankly, you absolutely cannot properly raise and socialize that many puppies. Not if you want to do it right. It's more than glutting the market, it's shortchanging the dogs.

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Sandy in OK:

[nq:2]Actually, homozygous merles aren't any more likely to be sick ... any other puppy - just missing major sensory input sources.[/nq]
[nq:1]Your definition of sick varies from mine, then. I also seem to recall that double merle in Aussies, anyway is linked to immune system problems and organ failure, so it's not just that the dogs are "missing major sensory input resources."[/nq]
According to CA Sharp who probably knows more about Aussie Genetics than anyone else on the face of the earth: " I have heard people say repeatedly that homozygous merles also suffer other kinds of defects, but I have found no hard evidence of this in the veterinary literature. It has not been the case with the homozygous merle Ausses of which I have personal knowledge. I don't know if the lack of these other defects is because we keep so few of these dogs or because they do not happen. Their presence in other breeds has been questioned and may be coincidental". http://www.ashgi.org/articles/color white fright.htm
[nq:1]I can see now why you are unconcerned about a lack of health testing by a particular breeder, as you appear not to have a use for it in general.[/nq]
You have no idea whether she health tests or not. THAT'S the point.

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Melinda Shore:

[nq:1]You have no idea whether she health tests or not. THAT'S the point.[/nq]
That's not true - she does have some idea, based on the lack of a statement on the breeder's website, lack of database entries, etc. Everybody I know who health tests says so - I don't know anybody who health tests and keeps it a secret. That's not to say that there's nobody who health tests without letting potential buyers know, but that precedent suggests that it's the less likely explanation.
What is true is that she doesn't know.

Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed)

Sending more troops into a war is properly called an "escalation."

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Sandy in OK:

[nq:2]One is as much "on point" as the other.[/nq]
[nq:1]Since the conversation was about white dogs, I thought it more on point.[/nq]
Totally different genetics. Do you know of any health issues or sensory defects common to white schnauzers?
[nq:1]So, since you're not big on conformation, why do you really need those extra-flashy Aussies? Not that flashy Aussies are really needed in conformation but, until now, I'd only heard conformation-only Aussie breeders defend the practice of merle-merle breeding.[/nq]You don't get more "flashy" dogs by breeding merle to merle (unless you are breeding dogs with really minimal or no trim - which conformation breeders generally are not) You just get more mismarks. However with breeders pushing th envelope on just how much flash they can get with the irish spotting pattern (s^i) they are also getting mismarks that way. And while those pups aren't more likely to have vision defects, since distribution of pigment within the ear is responsible for carrying sound, they do have a greater tendency towards deafness.

Working people tend not to care much if the dog has trim or not. Now there is a dog in Alice's pedigree who was a homozygous merle (and produced some excellent dogs) Because she came from a line with very minimal white trim she had normal vision and hearing.

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RE: "Don't touch my bone" page 25

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