[nq:2]That's your privilege. It doesn't, [nq:2]What sort of life?[/nq] [nq:1]One, [nq:1]()[/nq] [nq:2]Now

Anonymous:

[nq:2]Why? Do you turn your dogs loose to live in ... of by loving humans, who protect them from all harm?[/nq]
[nq:1]If your dog is a Lhasa, perhaps. My JRT would be a holy terror, if I tried to make him live that sort of life.[/nq]
What sort of life? One in which he doesn't have to be subjected to pain? Is your JRT a masochist?
[nq:2]That's very nice of you. Now, if you just COULD ... and your dogs could profit from that, don't you think?[/nq]
[nq:1]No, it can't be. Not with a lot of dogs.[/nq]
Jeff, have you ever TRIED Jerry's distract-and-praise method? Just give it a try, see if it works or not?
[nq:1]Ian Dunbar did some research, some years back. And found that using only positive methods, trainers reached only 83-85% reliability ... purely positive methods. And there are very few dogs who can reach high levels of reliability using only positive methods.[/nq]
Look, I find it hard to believe that - in all those studies - there was a group of dogs trained by Jerry's method and that group failed to give the desired results. "Only positive methods" is a rather ambiguous definition, if you ask Janet B. or Handsome Jack I'm sure they wouldn't find anything "negative" about their methods, either. What I'd like to see is an example of dog that is untrainable by JERRY'S method. Do you know or can you think of such a dog? Jerry has given quite a few examples of dogs that had been untrainable by the conventional methods and were trained easily by applying his method; can you give an example where the opposite is true?
[nq:1]Now to a purely positive trainer, it's better that the dogs who cannot be trained with only positive methods be euthanized as untrainable than to subject them to even the mildest correction. I disagree.[/nq]
I don't think that it's preferable to euthanize a dog that one trainer cannot train and I doubt that any sane trainer would prefer to kill a dog only because S/HE cannot train it. If I had a dog that *I* couldn't train by the method I'm using, I'd think that it's MY fault, certainly NOT the DOG'S. So I'd try something else, or would go for help to someone who knows better. I just don't believe that "better" means hurting the dog in order to make it do what I want.

Lucy

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Anonymous:

[nq:1]()[/nq]
[nq:2]Now to a purely positive trainer, it's better that the ... to subject them to even the mildest correction. I disagree.[/nq]
[nq:1]So do I, Jeff. But how can you even debate this topic with someone who insists, dispite all evidence to the contrary, that you must be harming* your dog, and that he *screams* from the *pain caused by the e-collar?[/nq]
What do you think that Fred's dog Sarah was screaming from, when he stimulated her by mistake?
Lucy

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Anonymous:

[nq:2]That's your privilege. It doesn't make you right, though.[/nq]
[nq:1]() Yes, Lucy, it does. Because I'm the e-collar expert, not you.[/nq]
This isn't about e-collars, Jack. It's about you, the expert, using a tool that makes the dogs scream when YOU make a mistake. A tool in YOUR EXPERT HANDS. Not some "doofus" who is using it the wrong way. CAN you see the difference, Jack? Do you understand that there is no "safe" way to hurt a dog, because even you, the almighty experts, are not exempt from making mistakes? And that your mistakes are causing pain, sometimes even to the WRONG dog (something that even Janet, by no means a "wincer", seems to think it is not fair)? What does that WRONG dog think, have you ever wondered, when it is punished out of the blue for something it DIDN'T DO?
[nq:1]You've never even seen one, yet you pontificate about them like you were its inventor.[/nq]
I'm not talking about e-collars, I'm talking about your TRAINING. The e-collar is just a thing - like a knife, a wheel, a piece of string. They can be used in many ways, or never used at all. I'm talking about what YOU choose to do with them. Like, when a man takes a harmless piece of string and uses it to strangle another human being to death. It isn't about the STRING, it's about the strangling and the strangler. DO you understand what I'm talking about?
[nq:1]And until you can find a way to debate or have a discussion without resorting to the use of dozens ... straw man is, look it up. You'll notice several dozen(!) of them in your reply. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html From the site above:[/nq]
>

OK, let's take them one at a time, to make the things as easy and painless for you as I possibly can:
You say that your training is the best the dog can have, in order to enjoy a long, fulfilling life. You say that "the dog has a choice" in its training. You say that there is "no big deal", even when you make mistakes like the one Fred made, a mistake the consequences of which it was the DOG who suffered.
Any distortion of your position so far?

Lucy

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Anonymous:

[nq:2]What sort of life?[/nq]
[nq:1]One in which he isn't given the freedom to explore the world, and all the fascinating stuff in it.[/nq]
But you DO restrict his freedom to explore the world when you use the e-collar on him, don't you? And, as you yourself say in your other post, this is extremely stressful for him.
[nq:2]One in which he doesn't have to be subjected to pain? Is your JRT a masochist?[/nq]
[nq:1]A JRT on the hunt doesn't give a damn about pain.[/nq]
But training is different, isn't it? If it weren't, if he hadn't given a damn about what he feels when you stimulate him with the e-collar, the e-collar would be completely useless, wouldn't it?
[nq:2]Jeff, have you ever TRIED Jerry's distract-and-praise method? Just give it a try, see if it works or not?[/nq]
[nq:1]Jerry's method is based on the fundamentally flawed premise that there is always something you can provide that is more rewarding to the dog than what the dog is doing himself. It's often true, but it is by no means always true.[/nq]
It's been always true with my dogs. It's been true when applied to other dogs I know of. I can't say if it works always or not, but have yet to see an instance when it HASN'T worked.
[nq:1]What do you do when your dog won't be distracted? The Jack Russells that people told stories about - and ... days down an earth closed with a fox. The JRTs that were distractable were culled from the bloodline.[/nq]
It's enough if the distraction is only temporary - just what it takes for him to stop and look at you, while you praise him enthusiastically. I can't believe that a JRT wouldn't turn his head in the direction of a sudden sound, even for a fraction of a second. THAT would be enough of a distraction for the method to work. Why not try and see for yourself?
[nq:2]Look, I find it hard to believe that - in ... can you give an example where the opposite is true?[/nq]
[nq:1]I don't know anyone, anywhere, whose done research on the specific methods advocated by Jerry-the-nitwit.[/nq]
Then perhaps it would be wiser to DO such a research, before dismissing his method as one that "doesn't work". Because, just as I and others had the opportunity to find out, it does work - often for dogs on which the traditional methods have failed completely.
[nq:1]And I have no idea what his record is, other than his record of antagonism and abuse here in this group.[/nq]
Well, you must have missed this post:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.pets.dogs.behavior/msg/42830b4e1b953764

>
And this one:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.pets.dogs.behavior/msg/10ffa408006ffc46

>
These are just two examples, from people (other than me) who have recently posted here. There are others as well.
[nq:2]I don't think that it's preferable to euthanize a dog ... dog in order to make it do what I want.[/nq]
[nq:1]That's the faith - that there is always some positive method out there that will work, even if no one ... to be a positive solution somewhere, even though you don't know what it is? What does the pet owner do?[/nq]
Jeff, I WAS the pet owner who was dealing with a difficult puppy. What I did, after the advice I got in Real Life didn't work, was look for help in this forum. I read a bit and was lucky enough to find Jerry's method, which was the easiest to apply and entirely nonviolent. It worked from the first try. It worked in what the destructive behavior was concerned, it worked about puppy nipping at our hands, it worked about aggression towards other dogs, it worked about pulling on leash, it worked about counter surfing, it worked about fear of thunder - what more a simple pet owner like me could ask for?
[nq:1]If you've implanted sufficient guilt over how terrible it would be for them to discipline their dog, they walk away ... and the dog miserable. Until they just can't put up with it any more and have the dog put down.[/nq]
I doubt that anyone in their right mind would rather kill their dog than try a different trainer. Especially after a trainer that didn't use corrections failed. I'd rather guess that one would give up after having tried more violent methods, because if THOSE couldn't help, what COULD... We do have a tendency to think that force is the ultimate answer - like going to war when everything else had failed.
[nq:1]Far too few of them will write you off as an ignorant wacko - you never come across as such, ... will recognize that you're simply wrong, and seek out someone who will do what is necessary to train the dog.[/nq]
I'm not a trainer, but if I were one I'd tell my clients that - if I fail - it doesn't mean that their dogs are not trainable, or that they - the owners - are incapable of whatever the training of their dog requires. And I'd never advise them to put down the dog. I'd just acknowledge the limits of my ability as a trainer and advise them to find help elsewhere.
Now, can you tell me that a trainer sticking to the conventional methods (such as, say, Janet B.) would do the same, if their training failed?
Lucy

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Handsome Jack Morrison:

()
[nq:2]() Yes, Lucy, it does. Because I'm the e-collar expert, not you.[/nq]
[nq:1]This isn't about e-collars, Jack. It's about you, the expert, using a tool that makes the dogs scream when YOU make a mistake.[/nq]
It was an isolated incident, you freakin; doofus.

There's no training tool that can't make a dog "scream" or "whine' or "cry" when it's not used correctly, or even when the dog is startled by "something." I've seen dogs tied to a tree, who would sometimes "scream" when they came to end of the tether.
Do you really think these dogs are "screaming" from *pain.*

They're "screaming" from being startled, surprised, ect.

And until you stop using entire BATTALIONS of straw men, I'm not going to debate you, because that, too, is an exercise in futility.

Let's see if you can make just one freakin' post here without resorting to the use of a straw man argument. 'kay?

I don't think you can do it.
You are to the straw man what Michael Jackson is to little boys.

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator before sending me e-mail. Or...KA-BOOM!

For our friends over in Europe, especially Katrina, Alison, Diana, et al.

While Europe Slept: How Radical Islam is Destroying the West from Within

And this one's for you, Melinda:
http://dreadpundit.blogspot.com/2006/02/paki-cartoonist-death-bounty-cleric.html

Don't let your babies grow up to be...commies.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21366

This thread originates from within 'usenet', and as such the content and users are not guaranteed to have been moderated by our community.

Handsome Jack Morrison:

()
[nq:2]But how can you even debate this topic with someone ... that he screams* from the *pain caused by the e-collar?[/nq]
[nq:1]What do you think that Fred's dog Sarah was screaming from, when he stimulated her by mistake?[/nq]
I've already told you that.
Several times now.
I'm not going to tell you again, because there's just no there there.

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator before sending me e-mail. Or...KA-BOOM!

For our friends over in Europe, especially Katrina, Alison, Diana, et al.

While Europe Slept: How Radical Islam is Destroying the West from Within

And this one's for you, Melinda:
http://dreadpundit.blogspot.com/2006/02/paki-cartoonist-death-bounty-cleric.html

Don't let your babies grow up to be...commies.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21366

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Rocky:

[nq:1]Some people here think that if the dog screams in pain while they train him "it's no big deal". I was curious to see how many of the regulars here share this belief.[/nq]
I've been involved in the training of hundreds of dogs (including me on the sidelines with ecollars). I've yet to hear one scream as a result of training, so I'm not in a position to say whether or not screaming is a big deal. My best response to your strawman question is that, no, screaming is not conducive to good training.
Perhaps we're all misunderstanding your use of "scream" and what exactly leads up to a scream. Can you outline the training situations where you've seen dogs scream?

Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

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Anonymous:

[nq:1]First, I've yet to encounter an untrainable dog; it's a fool's errand to even look for one. Some are harder to train than others, but they're all* trainable. No, some aren't going to become NFCs, but they're still highly trainable, and certainly by *pet standards.[/nq]
Well, meet THIS dog:
>
[nq:1]But that's where Lucy could do some of her own due diligence for a change,[/nq]
Let's forget about Lucy, for the time being, and instead please tell us what would YOU, Jack, do about the dog in the example above. How would you "save him from the needle"?
Thanks,
Lucy

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RE: Education about equipment page 10

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