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RE: Education about equipment page 5This is a discussion thread · 119 replies Sionnach: [nq:1]What the hell does that have to do with an e-collar?[/nq]Seems fairly obvious to me (especially after deciphering her follow-up post) that she's actually talking about Invisible Fence collars. IOW, the dog thought he was nearing an IF boundary, and refused to go forward.
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White Monkey: [nq:1]Also, I am not sure I buy your story. In my experience, when a dog rears up on a leash, ... want to go anywhere on the leash they will sit down or lay down. Not rear up. Marcel and Moogli[/nq]Danes sometimes do, actually. Saskia will if she suspects we're heading for the vet (we're nearly over this hurdle now because the last couple of time we went in they DIDN'T need to re-open her infected foot, etc., and I have been taking her past and in just to give her treats) or if she thinks she'll be forced to go somewhere "bad" like the time the animal ambulance people thought they were helping and grabbed her... Katrina
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White Monkey: [nq:1]When I got my second Great Dane I knew little about dogs or about e-collars. I was walking my Maxy ... did not know a thing about e-collars I figured out that he must have had one on at one point.[/nq]My Dane, Saskia, 2 years old later this month, has never worn an e-collar, or, for that matter, an IF collar, which seems to be what you are talking about.But she IS a Dane, and one thing about them is that they sometimes get a bit weird about objects. Like a shrub that wasn't there before, or a sandwich baggie, or (like the other day) a rolling paper fluttering on the ground. A reflection, even. To try to get them to go past these things without letting them investigate can be a real to-do, and for Saskia, at least, would be temporarily traumatic if I hadn't worked with her slowly and carefully to the point that she now totally believes me when I tell her it's OK to pass it with me there (as Janet puts it elsewhere in the thread, "the jolly approach"). There was the soccer ball in the canal incident, that had her running from window to window growling at it until it had floated out of sight just closing the curtains made her think it might have got IN, and she investigated obsessively every nook and cranny until I opened the curtains again. There was the marble in the crack between two bricks on the garden path incident she wouldnot go past there at first, and then once I'd figured out what the trouble was would not go by happily until I let her give it a good sniff and a few pokes. There was even the period before Queen's Day last year, when every day a new section of sidewalk had someone's reservation-marker chalked or painted onto it after the first few she stopped wanting to hesitate and sniff them all, but did give them a good hard stare on the way by. Danes are funny critters that way sometimes. It's taken her a month to get up her nerve to walk past the baby gate without me there when it's half closed (there's plenty of room). Do I think her breeder slapped an e-collar on her and shocked her while showing her rolling papers, marbles, chalk marks on the sidewalk, baby gates, and soccer balls, in the 8 weeks of her life before I got her? Of course not! Don't be silly. Katrina
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Anonymous: [nq:1]() Janet, I have just spoken with "the horse." And here's the story of what happened, according to Fred. The ... and Fred even demonstrated how easily Sarah returned to the crate afterwards. Really, it wasn't that big of a deal.[/nq]Oh, wasn't it? Just because she was back to "normal", in no time? I remember a horrifying account of how a little dog was tortured to death by four young men, who did this just for "fun". They even video-taped the killing. The detail that impressed me the most was this: > I couldn't understand WHY on earth would the little dog return to his torturers, why didn't he just run away from them for good; was it what in humans is known as "learned helplessness", which makes victims of severe abuse to stop trying to escape, even when escape IS possible? Was it some dog weirdness, that makes this animal so human-dependent that it goes against its self-preservation instinct? Anyway, this horrible story has taught me one thing: never to trust that "it's no big deal", just because the dog seems to put up with it. [nq:1]As an e-collar trainer yourself, you know that radio frequencies in multi-dog settings can and do get screwed up, no ... the dog starts to respond favorably, etc. Again, their initial response wasn't such a big deal after all, was it?[/nq] Let me ask you, what IS a big deal, in your opinion? If a crying dog is something to be ignored, IS there anything that would make you stop and consider the possibility that MAYBE what you're doing is not entirely right? Lucy
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Anonymous: [nq:1]What's wrong with pointing to his web site, Janet? Don't you do that yourself?[/nq]What Janet is apparently saying is that you're not supposed to SAY it in so many words. Especially when you're not so good with the written word, I guess. [nq:1]He once participated quite extensively *here,* but got worn down by all the morons, like Alison, Lucy, Diana, etc.[/nq] Please. I don't remember ever having talked to him, or about him. Until right now. [nq:1]His pain tolerance, and patience with bimbos, isn't the equivalent of, say, mine. Or yours, for that matter.[/nq] He seems to be quite a sensitive little flower, this friend of yours - when it comes to HIS pain tolerance. Perhaps he should increase his pain tolerance by learning from his dogs? [nq:1]Communicating with the written word isn't something that Fred is very good at, and he knows it.[/nq] Translation: he is illiterate. [nq:1]But he still participates on several mail lists, with other professional trainers.[/nq] [nq:2]Stimming the wrong dog. When the dog being worked wasn't ... and winding up giving high stims to a crated dog.[/nq] [nq:1]I think that's a crock of crap, Janet.[/nq] Well, Fred seems to have proven you wrong, Jack. [nq:1]Was this Fred himself doing the seminar? He's always been pretty damn careful about things like that. I can't even imagine Fred turning up the stim, much less stimming the wrong dog.[/nq] It only shows that you have a pretty limited imagination, Jack. [nq:2]More than one person, some more versed than others.[/nq] [nq:1]They don't sound like they were really qualified to judge anyone, IMO, and especially to know what was really going on.[/nq] Unlike you, who have NO idea whatsoever about what went on there; which doesn't prevent you to pass judgment on it, anyway. [nq:1]Fred's one of the best e-collar trainers out there, (no one is as good as I am, of course), and I have nothing but great respect for his abilities.[/nq] [nq:2]That it was no big deal.[/nq] [nq:1]What was no big deal? His reaction to stimming the wrong dog? Maybe his lack of a reaction was because there really wasn't anything to react to?[/nq] Screaming dogs are nothing to react to, right. [nq:2]I think it is. I think anyone using anything of power should be very sure of where that power is pointed.[/nq] [nq:1]I'm still not sure what you mean by fairness, Janet.[/nq] http://onlinedictionary.datasegment.com/word/fairness fairness n 1: conformity with rules or standards; "the judge recognized the fairness of my claim" (syn: equity) (ant: unfairness) 2: ability to make judgments free from discrimination or dishonesty (syn: fair-mindedness, candor, candour) (ant: unfairness) 3: the property of having a naturally light complexion (syn: paleness, blondness) 4: the quality of being good looking and attractive (syn: comeliness, loveliness, beauteousness) I suppose that Janet didn't have in view the 3rd and 4th meanings, therefore we're left with the 1st and 2nd. [nq:1]Let's say that it did happen, okay? Did the fact that a mistake was made indicate a lack of fairness to you?[/nq] [nq:2]Oh please - no! The crated dog didn't deserve the ... seem to be the least bit of regret about it.[/nq] [nq:1]Well, it's probably not the first time that the wrong dog has gotten stimmed, but Fred uses such low levels of stimulation (especially at seminars), it probably really is no big deal.[/nq] Yeah, it only makes the dog scream - no big deal. [nq:2]One again, it's kind of like the old comic of Dennis the Menace hitting a baseball and braking Mr Wilson's window. Know where you're aiming.[/nq] [nq:1]Oh, come on Janet. You've never seen a dog accidentally get jerked around by his leash, say, when the handler wasn't paying attention? You've never done it yourself? Did you think it was a big deal?[/nq] Janet never jerks a dog. [nq:1]Did you automatically think that you weren't being fair? My advice: Stop talking to Alison! You're starting to sound like her.  [/nq]Janet, you're about to break the Trainer's First and Most Important Command: "Thou shalt never speak ill of another Trainer - even if what you're saying is nothing but the truth!" Lucy
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Suja: [nq:1]But she IS a Dane, and one thing about them is that they sometimes get abit weird about objects.[/nq]A couple of weeks ago, we took the dogs on one of their usual walks. Must've been there at least a couple of dozen times. But this time, Pan went all stiff. Hair standing up on her back, she started giving her low growl, staring at the offender. She barked a good few times, growled in between, tried everything she could. But the eeevil thing just stood there, staring right back at her. Good thing it was on the other side of the creek.The trail we took went across the creek and about 20 ft. away from the eeevil thing, and she was in full alert mode. While the thing didn't back down, it didn't attack us either, so her warnings must've worked. She kept looking back at it, growling, letting it know that she knew that it was up to no good. The Rock just stood there, staring back, waiting, just waiting for the next go-around. [nq:1]Do I think her breeder slapped an e-collar on her and shocked her while showing her rolling papers, marbles, chalk marks on the sidewalk, baby gates, and soccer balls, in the 8 weeksof her life before I got her? Of course not! Don't be silly.[/nq] The way I see it, the torture of Saskia started way before you got her. Pan's funny with stuff as well, the kite that has been stuck in the tree for ages, the piece of wood sticking out of the stream, plastic bag stuck in the brush that is flapping in the wind. All eeevil, and in full attack mode. Good thing she's keeping an eye out, or who knows what would've happened by now. Suja
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Melinda Shore: [nq:1]The way I see it, the torture of Saskia started way before you got her.[/nq]This morning's "Pooch Cafe" seems timely: http://www.msnbc.com/comics/daily.asp?sFile=pf060210 Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed) Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community.
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Handsome Jack Morrison: ()[nq:2]He uses the story to illustrate to people that, while ... crate afterwards. Really, it wasn't that big of a deal.[/nq] [nq:1]Oh, wasn't it? Just because she was back to "normal", in no time?[/nq] Yeah, that's about it. And that she even re-entered her crate without hesitation, etc. And that she has continued to prove that it was no more of a big deal than, say, when a person stubs his toe on his bed post in the morning, or when a dog yanks his own leash when he takes off after a squirrel. So if you think stubbing your toe is a big deal, I suggest that you start hunkering down somewhere and never go outside. Ever. Because it's scaary out there. And for crissakes, never, ever go to a retriever field-trial. Where you might see dogs gleefully charging through briar patches, thickets, tumbling down river banks, climbing over fallen trees, getting flipped end-over-end by thick brush, swim hundreds of yards across mostly frozen lakes and ponds, fast-moving rivers, etc. And begging for more. Yet somehow you think a little ol' inadvertant stim is going to have some kind of disastrous effect on a dog like that. () [nq:2]But you work through it, don't you? And within a ... response wasn't such a big deal after all, was it?[/nq] [nq:1]Let me ask you, what IS a big deal, in your opinion? If a crying dog is something to be ignored,[/nq] No one here has ever suggested that it should be ignored! But to dwell on it, like it was akin to some kind of Nazi torture regimen, is simply beyond the pale, and the sign of an emotionally unstable psyche. You lack any and all sense of perspective. [nq:1]IS there anything that would make you stop and consider the possibility that MAYBE what you're doing is not entirely right?[/nq] What I'm often doing is saving the life of a dog who was "trained" with nothing more than "love and affection," yet somehow finds himself abandoned by that same, kindly person because of "issues." Have you ever considered the possibility that MAYBE what you're doing is not entirely right? E.g., forcing an 8* week old puppy to hold it for *8 hours, locked away in his crate? Handsome Jack Morrison *gently remove the detonator to send me e-mail Jimmy "Jimmuh" Carter, Joseph Lowery, et al. http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21223
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Handsome Jack Morrison: On 9 Feb 2006 20:42:52 GMT, Marcel Beaudoin[nq:2]I know one breed it does not work on is ... it and can and will be emotionally traumatized by one.[/nq] Someone should tell this &*^%# (no, not Marcel) that e-collars are especially effective for shy or sensitive dogs. Handsome Jack Morrison *gently remove the detonator to send me e-mail Jimmy "Jimmuh" Carter, Joseph Lowery, et al. http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21223
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