[nq:1]Interesting, but irrelevant. Is it, [nq:2]I believe Patch, or someone,, [nq:2]Question for

Anonymous:

[nq:2]And that makes a hell of a difference in whether ... ENJOYS doing, unlike when he is subjected to your... "training"?[/nq]
[nq:1]It makes a hell of a lot of difference when you are on here arguing with people about things like ... dog not to chase prey. It also makes a hell of a lot of difference where your credibility is concerned.[/nq]
MY credibility has nothing to do with the question I asked. I'm not a trainer and not pretending to be one. The question I asked was if it's morally acceptable to inflict pain on another sentient being only because that sentient being can take it. It has nothing to do with my knowledge or lack thereof of things canine. It pertains to ethics, not to expertise in dogs.
[nq:2]Are you morally comfortable, Sally, with the screaming dog that ... from the "horse" that actually "it was no big deal"?[/nq]
[nq:1]I am not a professional dog trainer. I would not be comfortable training my dogs with e collars because I don't know anything about them and don't know how to use them.[/nq]
The dog screams. According to HJM, there is pain that causes her to scream, but it is "no big deal". Do you agree with this moral stance, yes or no?
[nq:1]Also, none of my dogs are performance dogs; all I need from them is CGC-level obedience, unless I use them ... when it comes to dogs and dog behavior. So, that's pretty much my story with respect to training and equipment.[/nq]
Interesting, but irrelevant. Is it morally acceptable to you to cause pain to a dog as part of his training (by whatever means you want)? A simple "Yes" or "No" would suffice.
[nq:1]I'm seldom hesitant about speaking my mind, but I don't generally opine on subjects that I know absolutely nothing about, such as e collars. You might consider trying that, Lucy.[/nq]
I might, if e-collars were the issue here. They aren't.

Lucy.

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sighthounds & siberians:

[nq:2]I believe Patch, or someone, said it just couldn't possibly happen that he would shriek unless he were being abused.[/nq]
[nq:1]I think you're right - good ol' Patch. My friend's GH was a screamer. Not a hand laid on her, but it sounded like she must be being stabbed with 1,000 daggers. Total drama queen.[/nq]
Yep, the breed's full of 'em. Hard to believe that Zeke was a blood donor, the way he'd act when nothing happened.
Mustang Sally

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Anonymous:

[nq:2]Question for the group: does anyone think that there's something ... happens to all of you with the dogs you train?[/nq]
[nq:1]I'm not even addressing your lunacy, but the dog in question was not beign trained - that's the point - the WRONG dog - the dog resting in a CRATE was the one being stimmed.[/nq]
The dog was not being trained AT THAT PARTICULAR MOMENT. I suppose she was trained by the same method, though, since she WAS wearing an e-collar. Unless she was wearing it because "it's puurty".
[nq:1]As far as a dog being worked vocalizing, well, I've known some dogs who scream when they're looked at crooked.[/nq]
Thank you.
Lucy

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sighthounds & siberians:

[nq:1]Interesting, but irrelevant. Is it morally acceptable to you to cause pain to a dog as part of his training (by whatever means you want)? A simple "Yes" or "No" would suffice.[/nq]
Actually, a simple "yes" or "no" wouldn't suffice as an answer to that question, so I'm going to ignore it, much the same as you do.
[nq:1]I might, if e-collars were the issue here. They aren't.[/nq]
You wouldn't, no matter what, more's the pity.
Mustang Sally

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Handsome Jack Morrison:

()
[nq:2]Yet somehow you think a little ol' inadvertant stim is going to have some kind of disastrous effect on a dog like that.[/nq]
[nq:1]You seem to miss the point.[/nq]
Actually, it's the other way around.
I don't give a *** what you think.
That's my point.
[nq:1]There is a lot of pain in the life of every one of us, dog or human, and we all have to cope with it as best we can.[/nq]
And that's just one of the things I teach dogs to do, i.e., to cope with all the goings-on of life.
So that they can go anywhere, anytime, anyplace. And enjoy all the things that dogs enjoy doing.
[nq:1]Sometimes the pain is the price we willingly pay for something that we want very much - like the retriever ... pain-killers, which can't be said about the poor dog that got an electrical stimulation while lying peacefully in her cage).[/nq]
One of the things we must all learn (humans and dogs) if we're going to be able to cope with the normal goings-on in life, is to learn how to differentiate between the small stuff and the BIG STUFF(!).

A lot of dogs are ill-prepared to do that. So are a lot of humans.

I make sure that my dogs are prepared. And I make sure that my children are, too.
[nq:1]But there is another aspect here, one that a decent human being would have no difficulty to notice right away: ... the pain you want; you know how much you can and want to bear and whether it's worthwhile or not.[/nq]
Here's yet another aspect to consider, and an aspect shared by essentially all mentally stable individuals who own dogs.

If I, as a representative of the homo sapiens species, and designated as the guardian of the canis lupus familiaris species, decide that a dog is going to get his nails clipped, because of safety or health concerns, or his teeth cleaned, because of health concerns, or a series of shots, because of health concerns, or an operation, because of health concerns, etc. it's going to happen. Period. Even if there is some pain involved.
No, the dog will not have a voice in this decision.

And I won't beat myself up over it, either.
Because I, as the species with the larger brain have decided that the many long-lasting rewards from all that are well worth any temporary discomfort or pain.
Additionally, if I decide that it's more important for a dog to be well-trained than it is to avoid any possibility of him ever experiencing any discomfort or pain, he's going to be well-trained.

Period. Yes, even if it entails some temporary discomfort.

However, in this the dog will have a voice, will have to make choices, etc. Because that's what life is all about making choices.
Why do I think it is more important? For the same reason that I think dogs should undergo even temporary discomfort while dealing with various health considerations because it will dramatically increase the chances of the dog being able to live a much longer, much more rewarding life.
I have yet to find a well-trained dog at a shelter or rescue facility, and I don't think that's just a coincidence. But many of them were well-loved, or at least well thought of, yet all that love and affection somehow helped to land them there anyway.

And, of course, several million of those poor dogs are killed every single year in this country, because many of them were loved to death, so to speak.
I greet many dogs at the precise moment they arrive in this world, and they're also in my arms when they breathe their last breath. I provide for them the very best I can. I provide them with the very best nutrition available. I provided them with the very best health care available. I provide them with a roof over their head, generally the same roof that's over my own head. I provide them with the very best pre-schooling imaginable. I provide them with the very best education any dog can get. I provide them with a job. The same job that every retriever was born to have. And, of course, I provide them with all the love and affection that any dog should ever have to endure.

In return for all that (yes, I make them affix their paw print to a document), and to become well-trained, they might have to experience a little discomfort from time to time. Not usually more than a tap on the shoulder, or very infrequently a definite thump. Certainly much less discomfort than when getting their nails clipped, teeth cleaned, vaccinated, etc. I also teach them how easy it is to avoid even getting tapped on the shoulder, much less thumped. So that they can learn how to make good choices.
The methods I choose to use to do that training (i.e., how I show them how to make good choices) are all based on sound, scientific principles (operant conditioning, classical conditioning, etc.), and are proven to work extremely fast and extremely effectively and reliably. And the faster the results, the better the results, the faster the dog gets a job, and gets to go places and to do things he would rather do than eat.
Of course, implicit in this agreement is the promise that I will never, ever abandon him, no matter what, or confine him to a dog crate unless it's absolutely necessary, or use any more punishment than is absolutely necessary, among other things.
As to how this agreement is working out, well, all anyone ever needs to do to find that out is to just look at my dogs. Especially when they're with me. Someone who they would rather be with than even their own kind.
So I always defer to my dogs to let me know how our agreement is coming along.
I.e., I only give a *** what my dogs think.
So to reiterate what *my* point is again:
I don't give a *** what you think about anything.

I DON'T GIVE A WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT ANYTHING!

D

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to reply by e-mail
Jimmy "Jimmuh" Carter, Joseph Lowery, et al.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21223

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Handsome Jack Morrison:

()
[nq:1]Well, of course not; she's of the 'a dog is a dog and a kat is a kat and a spHOWEse is a spHOWEse' school of lunacy.[/nq]
Actually, I think our Little Loony Lucy is more of a "rat is a pig is a dog is a boy" kind of gal.
Now, where have I heard that before?
Hmmnn.

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to reply by e-mail
Jimmy "Jimmuh" Carter, Joseph Lowery, et al.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21223

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Susan Fraser:

[nq:1]Did a little googling around and read some of my early opinions on e-collars. .. OTOH, I'm glad I've read, ... loves, but needed to learn to play by the rules, and accomplished such in the most humane and stressless way.[/nq]
Hello, Janet Emotion: wink

We've all read, watched and learned an awful lot through the years, huh? Funny how the worm turns, though. After expending so much energy and passion defending e-collars here for years (has it really been so long ago?) my Flyway quit working a while back, and I threw it in a closet and haven't thought about it since. Gris-Gris, now over 2 years old, has never even had a dummy collar on.

Why? Well, it was prtly because I gave up field training when I went back to school. But I didn't give up training all together - I actually spend just as much or more time training as I ever did - so that's not entirely it.
I am fortunate that I do have very very drive-y dogs. And now that I can control what drives them better than I could in field situations, I just don't have such need to over-ride their hardwired instincts to get behaviors. Were they prey driven, or just had a wander lust, I'm sure I would have different priorities.
But Gris-Gris is a dervish on the agility course. She sometimes gets just a teeny tiny little bit out of control but gawd almighty, when she puts it together, it's breathtaking. I just simply haven't needed a remote training device on her except for maybe targets...

And I also don't feel a need to use birds to train any longer. As I get older, I have to admit that the days my bred-to-retrieve dogs will get to indulge their hardwired proclivities in finding downed game will probably be few and far between. In a perfect world, all kids would have the opportunity, the wild game and the untamed land on which to venture out armed and kill their dinner. As an ex-biology teacher, when it comes to learning about the food chain and the circle of life, a hunting dog is a much superior mentor to a classroom.

But since I began a "kinder, gentler" sort of training (and I'm speaking mostly of the wear and tear on ME!) I have been happier, more relaxed, more cheerful. I laugh at my girls' antics more and try to be in control of them less. We have had our share of success, and we crash and burn rather spectacularly often as well. I revel in both.

I suppose Katrina cemented in some of these changed attitudes - there's too much out of our control to obsess on absolute perfection. As my favorite t-shirt says, sometimes you just gotta "Go With The Contraflow". -)
I could have gone the other way had I been a mainstream doggy trainer who got progressively more focused and controlling and then stepped up to the big leagues, but I find it appropros that I'm going backwards. My claim to fame now is that I have consistently the fastest dog in her class who is as entertaining to watch for her joyous bloopers as for her spectacular clean runs. ;-)
It's worth the occasional loss of control to have the priveledge of being a part of her intense joy de vivre.
That said, I would NEVER be able to get a handle on a dog this drivey if I did not have the years and years of practice at timing and motivation and breaking down behaviors into components and chaining and back chaininag, etc that using the e-collar taught me.

Without a doubt, we are all exctly where we need to be at this time in order to grow and learn what we need to know to be happy.

In other words, "I'm glad I reminded myself of some of my close-minded ideas, and glad
that I'm a confident enough person to allow myself to open my mind and learn. Sure wish others could undertand what that really means. "

Thanks for the education, Janet et al.
Susan and the AuH2Ok9s
HR BeBop a Lu SheBop SH,
HR Shamma Lamma Ding Dong CDX MH OA NAJ,
and Gris-Gris Gumbo Ya Ya NA (virgin title, the first time in print!)

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Mary Beth:

[nq:1] I'd love to see him prove I'm a lying thug dog abuser. Alison[/nq]
Me too. Hubby told me whizzy thinks I was in a mental ward for two years.
Does this steph and lucy think this is true? Hahahahahahaha

Of all ppl to think up such nonsense. Emotion: smile

I've already invited ANYONE to come to my house to visit and see how my dgos are treat..PAMPERED. Emotion: smile

Oh well,
MaryBeth

BTW, I live back in Southeastern Kansas again, email me if you're near and want to see how much love and devotion I give all my beloved 'children'.

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Anonymous:

[nq:1]()[/nq]
[nq:2]You seem to miss the point.[/nq]
[nq:1]Actually, it's the other way around. I don't give a *** what you think.[/nq]
That's your privilege. It doesn't make you right, though.
[nq:1]That's my point.[/nq]
[nq:2]There is a lot of pain in the life of ... all have to cope with it as best we can.[/nq]
[nq:1]And that's just one of the things I teach dogs to do, i.e., to cope with all the goings-on of life.[/nq]
Why? Do you turn your dogs loose to live in the wild? Aren't they supposed to be taken care of by loving humans, who protect them from all harm?
[nq:1]So that they can go anywhere, anytime, anyplace. And enjoy all the things that dogs enjoy doing.[/nq]
That's very nice of you. Now, if you just COULD force your imagination just a little bit and grasp the notion that this can be done by a gentler, non-physical method that doesn't cause the dog to scream when learning something, perhaps both you and your dogs could profit from that, don't you think?
[nq:2]Sometimes the pain is the price we willingly pay for ... got an electrical stimulation while lying peacefully in her cage).[/nq]
[nq:1]One of the things we must all learn (humans and dogs) if we're going to be able to cope with ... lot of humans. I make sure that my dogs are prepared. And I make sure that my children are, too.[/nq]
That's nonsense. Do you intend to send your dogs or your kids to fight behind enemy lines? Are they likely to fall into the hands of the bad guys who will subject them to torture? Should they be prepared for THAT kind of stuff? Normal life, for both humans and dogs, requires an ability to make good judgment, not a martyr's ability to cope with pain.
[nq:2]But there is another aspect here, one that a decent ... and want to bear and whether it's worthwhile or not.[/nq]
[nq:1]Here's yet another aspect to consider, and an aspect shared by essentially all mentally stable individuals who own dogs. If ... an operation, because of health concerns, etc. it's going to happen. Period. Even if there is some pain involved.[/nq]
None of these entail causing the creature pain ON PURPOSE. That's involved only in your lousy training, because YOU don't know anything better than that.
[nq:1]No, the dog will not have a voice in this decision. And I won't beat myself up over it, either. ... than it is to avoid any possibility of him ever experiencing any discomfort or pain, he's going to be well-trained.[/nq]
That would be true if no other kind of training were available; but this is not the case, and you know it.
[nq:1]Period. Yes, even if it entails some temporary discomfort.[/nq]
Don't you think that you owe your dogs the effort to always improve your training method, making it not only more effective, but also less traumatic to the dog? Don't you think that, just as you're ready to subject your dogs to a certain degree of pain, you owe them the same in what concerns YOUR training to be a trainer? And if someone comes and says, "There is a better way!", don't you think that you owe your dogs the effort to at least investigate that way, before you dismiss it in order to stick to the old method, the only one that you know?
[nq:1]However, in this the dog will have a voice, will have to make choices, etc. Because that's what life is all about making choices.[/nq]
What choice does exactly the dog have, when the remote control of the e-collar he's wearing is in your hand?
[nq:1]Why do I think it is more important? For the same reason that I think dogs should undergo even temporary ... it will dramatically increase the chances of the dog being able to live a much longer, much more rewarding life.[/nq]
By reading the posts here, I wouldn't say that your dogs do live a particularly long life. As about rewarding, do you think that there are enough rewards in life to justify a painful, abused childhood?
[nq:1]I have yet to find a well-trained dog at a shelter or rescue facility, and I don't think that's just ... well-loved, or at least well thought of, yet all that love and affection somehow helped to land them there anyway.[/nq]
A real study, with the appropriate controls, would be interesting, indeed.
Yet by analogy with humans, though not all the abused children become serial or mass murderers, it appears that the overwhelming majority of the killers WERE abused as children. Perhaps the cruelty experienced at the hands of their caretakers is exactly what taught them to be cruel to their fellow humans, in their turn.
[nq:1]And, of course, several million of those poor dogs are killed every single year in this country, because many of them were loved to death, so to speak.[/nq]
Or perhaps because they were punished for their "mistakes", the way you and your friends here teach.
[nq:1]I greet many dogs at the precise moment they arrive in this world, and they're also in my arms when ... And, of course, I provide them with all the love and affection that any dog should ever have to endure.[/nq]
I have no doubt that you love dogs, otherwise I wouldn't be wasting my time talking with you. I just think that your idea that this love should be expressed as pain to the dog ("in the dog's best interest", of course) is mistaken. And I think that your stubbornness to refuse exploring the possibility that a better way to train exists is harming you just as much as it harms your dogs.
[nq:1]In return for all that (yes, I make them affix their paw print to a document), and to become well-trained, ... avoid even getting tapped on the shoulder, much less thumped. So that they can learn how to make good choices.[/nq]
Don't fool yourself - they have NO choice. A contract we choose to sign we can also choose to NOT sign; what can a dog who'd rather say "No, thanks!" to your package deal do? Can he refuse to put his paw on your document? Can he walk out and fend for himself, rather than have to put up with the pain you choose to inflict on him as part of his training?
[nq:1]The methods I choose to use to do that training (i.e., how I show them how to make good choices) ... the dog gets a job, and gets to go places and to do things he would rather do than eat.[/nq]
Beating children in order to make them learn was also considered a fast, proven, good old way to teach. This didn't make it right, however. Learning should be an enjoyable experience, for both kids and animals, not a traumatic one.
[nq:1]Of course, implicit in this agreement is the promise that I will never, ever abandon him, no matter what, or confine him to a dog crate unless it's absolutely necessary, or use any more punishment than is absolutely necessary, among other things.[/nq]
Does this include putting the dog down, when the training fails, despite all its great results with most of the dogs? Can the dog that is killed sue you for failing to fulfill your part of the contract?
[nq:1]As to how this agreement is working out, well, all anyone ever needs to do to find that out is to just look at my dogs. Especially when they're with me. Someone who they would rather be with than even their own kind.[/nq]
This speaks more of the enormous capacity for love of the DOGS, rather than about your successful and humane training. Don't kid yourself. Many abused children love their abusive parents, too.
[nq:1]So I always defer to my dogs to let me know how our agreement is coming along. I.e., I only give a *** what my dogs think.[/nq]
What do you think they think when they scream during your training sessions?
[nq:1]So to reiterate what *my* point is again: I don't give a *** what you think about anything. I DON'T GIVE A WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT ANYTHING![/nq]
Well, that doesn't seem to be the case, judging by how you're screaming. Am I causing you some minor discomfort, by chance? No more than a tap on your shoulder - or perhaps a thump?
Lucy

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RE: Education about equipment page 8

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