[nq:2]() Actually, it's the other, "Mary Beth" said in [nq:1]Wanna, [nq:2]Me too.

Anonymous:

[nq:2] I'd love to see him prove I'm a lying thug dog abuser. Alison[/nq]
[nq:1]Me too. Hubby told me whizzy thinks I was in a mental ward for two years. Does this steph and lucy think this is true? Hahahahahahaha[/nq]
Hi, Mary Beth!
I don't have the slightest idea, and frankly I don't really care. What I'd really want to know, though, is if your dogs do scream during your training?
Lucy

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Handsome Jack Morrison:

[nq:2]() Actually, it's the other way around. I don't give a *** what you think.[/nq]
[nq:1]That's your privilege. It doesn't make you right, though.()[/nq]
Yes, Lucy, it does. Because I'm the e-collar expert, not you. You've never even seen one, yet you pontificate about them like you were its inventor.
And until you can find a way to debate or have a discussion without resorting to the use of dozens and dozens of straw men, I'm not going to even attempt to debate you. I have no intention of debating with straw men. If you don't know what a straw man is, look it up. You'll notice several dozen(!) of them in your reply.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

Try to find them all, they're pretty easy to find.

So I'll repeat it again your opinion means absolutely nothing to me. Nor probably does it mean anything to anyone else here (if responses to your posts are any indication).
Instead of always embarassing yourself by your ignorance, why not go down to your local shelter and put your money where your mouth is, like the vast majority of us barbarians here do? Try to save a few of those dogs' lives using only Jerry's "manual." Don't their lives matter to you?
And then be sure to let us know how that works out for you.

Videos would be a very nice touch!

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to send me e-mail
For our friends over in Europe, especially Katrina, Alison, Diana, et al.

While Europe Slept: How Radical Islam is Destroying the West from Within

And this one's for you, Melinda:
http://dreadpundit.blogspot.com/2006/02/paki-cartoonist-death-bounty-cleric.html

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Mary Beth:

[nq:2]Me too. Hubby told me whizzy thinks I was ... Does this steph and lucy think this is true? Hahahahahahaha[/nq]
[nq:1]Hi, Mary Beth! I don't have the slightest idea, and frankly I don't really care. What I'd really want to know, though, is if your dogs do scream during your training? Lucy[/nq]
Not once, nope, never, nunca, no.
They have their own big fenced yard, (we put this in ourselves..70X15' and 5' tall), but as they do NOT get anywhere near the exercise they need from that alone, I drive them up to the lake 4-5 times a week. Off leash, romping thru the tall grass, and swimming, IF I let them. For over 2-4 hours a day, all of them.
Wanna know how I stop them from jumping in if it's too cold? I simply say, not yell, 'leave it'. They then focus only on me, and do whatever I ask of them. (As in, 'let's go home', 'let's get in the car for a ride', is that bad?)
Boo does squeal OFF leash on the way to the lake. Does that count?

HINT: If you're going to depend on whizzy for your info on others, you'd be better to read each post before you judge or even ask such silly questions.
Don't know if you read my other posts, about Rudy's birthday, (did that make you sick? Or my other one inviting anyone here to visit my home and meet my dogs, and me. I have an absolutely great home for my BELOVED dogs. They never have, nor HAD, any reason to scream. Squeal in excitement, yes. If your dog/s, don't ever squeal in happiness and joy, you're missing out. Not that I have anything to prove to you or others. Emotion: smile

I just find it funny that you seem to get your info from a looney.
Have a nice day. Emotion: smile

MaryBeth
PS Do YOUR dogs ever scream? I mean, if we're taking a survey here..

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Rocky:

"Mary Beth" said in
[nq:1]Wanna know how I stop them from jumping in if it's too cold? I simply say, not yell, 'leave it'. They then focus only on me, and do whatever I ask of them.[/nq]
It's pretty cool how dogs immediately focus on calm and quiet commands rather than yelling.
You should write a manual, MB.

Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

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Mary Beth:

[nq:2]Wanna know how I stop them from jumping in if ... only on me, and do whatever I ask of them.[/nq]
[nq:1]It's pretty cool how dogs immediately focus on calm and quiet commands rather than yelling.[/nq]
Isn't it? It's funny trying to hide my thugness, but I try..

I love the rock hard stay you do with Rocky for feeding, it brings such a great picture to my mind. I remember Rudy used to sit at the dinner table, after we'd left it, staring at the butter if we forgot to put it up. He'd just kind of go into his hypnotic gaze, just willing that butter to come to the edge of the table. Drool and all, like Rocky. Heh I feed the three dogs together and it's not a problem for them to dig right in, for *me*, as none of them have any digestive problems anymore, like Rudy used to have. But they do all sit patiently, even tho I've never exacty 'trained' them to. It just grows with our being together. I tell them '2 minutes', and they wait.
My Dad keeps getting riled up about that one, he insists dogs can't tell time. Emotion: smile

I guess that 'wait' just turned into '2 minutes', altho if I say wait, they will wait until I say that or another word to release them.
[nq:1]You should write a manual, MB.[/nq]
Oh geeze oleeeze, me? Heck no. Heh
Would I have to use the work MARE, in everything I typed??? That's what everyone calls me. LOL
I tend to teach/train by osmosis, for most of the things, these days, but that's cuz I put in the work early. (I'll have to read up on my old posts about my pups, when I get a new one...not for awhile yet, tho.) Of course when they were pups, I had to put a lot of time into it, but that wasn't for each command, it was all of them. Each didn't take more than a few times, mostly.
I know* I worked with them, but now, even tho I still teach them new things all the time, they just seem to have learned English, or perhaps I've learned 'dog'. (Actualy ask family/pals and they'll all say I talk 'dog'. )I am with them 24/7, and I *know* I'm training them, but it hasn't been that hard, not such a *conscious* level anymore. I'm on the floor with them every night, and get them snuggled up at bedtime, either on bed, or floor, to tell each of their stories, about where they came from, what they were like, what they used to do. Heh. This is why I know they know what I'm saying, at least the "Rudy was a baby puppy, blah blah, I love Boo, blah blah..Zack was like blah blah..." They do really surprise me and Hub evreyday with things I say to him, that they *know, not only just thier names in the sentence.

Rudy does sort of tap me if I forget his fave parts, like all the ticks we found in his ears, before adopting him. (Had the HS gal take them all out, before we left the building with him. Even tho it's a gross part, to hub, Rudy doesn't like it if I leave that out.)
The 'leave it' was easy peasy, I merely substitued something they'd rather have than what they were looking to pick up. (Looking is the operative word, here, I watch them to see what they are about to do, and call them, drumroll..to distract them??? I thought only one person taught that, tho?? ), to me.
It may have been with another toy, a treat, or a rubdown. Whatever, but finally phased them out, and now at 14, 9 & 8, they all know pretty much how to behave. If my legs weren't so bad I'd do more, but they love the lake and the surrouding area, and they are very happy going there. They get plently of exercise with the floppy disc, balls, or in Boo's case, twigs*. I just can't let them go in the water when it's cold, the arthritis will flare big time, and I know personally what that feels like...I've learned a lot from this group over the years, and tho I may not choose to use every tool, I try to either check it out with others, or at least watch ppl face to face train. Aside from having Boo pull on the choke chain, (I'm not putting these down!!), I knew *I wasn't doing it correctly, and tossed it..for a prong, for a couple of months. She was strong, and my legs can't take the pulling. With the prong she just pulled til she felt me stop and she then stopped also.

I don't have a clue where any of the prongs are anymore, probably in storage. But it did work for me, and Boo/Ceilidh. Never needed it on Zack unless I was walking the two of them together. And, as I've written many times, I've never used/owned an e-colloar, only watched Jane's Mudpie be able to romp in her yard, free and happy. There also weren't any spiked collars around either, but they have the spikes on the outside, right? That's the only kind of 'spiked' collar I know of, and I don't think the golden retriever nor the lab looks good in any of those.

Thanks Matt,
and HAPPY BIRFDAY !! Frum the Smiff Den
Rudy, Boo, Zack, Hannah, & Piper
Mare AKA MB

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Rocky:

"Mary Beth" said in
[nq:1]I love the rock hard stay you do with Rocky for feeding, it brings such a great picture to my mind.[/nq]
How about this one?: I had a French Bulldog overnight this past weekend; at dinner, he didn't respect his Wait and dove for Friday's bowl. Friday didn't break his stay, but looked at me with a "what the heck is goin' on?" look.
[nq:1]I remember Rudy used to sit at the dinner table, after we'd left it, staring at the butter if we ... his hypnotic gaze, just willing that butter to come to the edge of the table. Drool and all, like Rocky.[/nq]
Yup, that's Rocky. Great obedience but lousy drool control. I had a friend's dog here recently for three weeks: She taught Rocky to whine while he stared at food. Matt is not amused.
[nq:1]I tend to teach/train by osmosis, for most of the things, these days, but that's cuz I put in the work early.[/nq]
Yup, but osmosis training is simply consistency and understanding the dog's feedback, so early is good but not necessary. When I give my agility students their homework, I just describe the little things that I do with my dogs all day long. Even once-a-week visiting dogs who get their only obedience training here are benefiting from consistency, albeit infrequent.
[nq:1](I'll have to read up on my old posts about my pups, when I get a new one...not for awhile yet, tho.)[/nq]
How long is "a while"? I betchya that it'll be shorter than planned.

Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

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Suja:

[nq:1]How about this one?: I had a French Bulldog overnight this past weekend; at dinner, he didn't respect his Wait and dove for Friday's bowl. Friday didn't break his stay, but looked at me with a "what the heck is goin' on?" look.[/nq]
That tends to happen here every time we have a new dog. Until they catch on to that whole 'No, we do not dive headlong into the nearest bowl' concept, my two have to put up with dogs diving into their food bowls. Half the time, they don't even notice what is going on, because they're not only holding their stays, but also trying ever so hard to maintain eye contact with me.
Suja

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Mary Beth:

[nq:2]I love the rock hard stay you do with Rocky for feeding, it brings such a great picture to my mind.[/nq]
I forgot to mention why I brought that up.
When Rudy did that 'stare at butter', that's when I started to name it. He'd sit there on his own, all the while I'd tell him to sit, then 'stay' wait', all the things he was offering, but praising him while doing it, gave him the perfect idea of what I wanted.
Heck, Boo nor Rudy crawl, (I expect from their hip problems), but Zack can do a GREAT crawl, and he's the largest one of all. My big guy that that abusive owner, (the bastitch guy that got busted and went to court by the SPCA), had treated so badly that he'd not be able to do all the various 'tricks' or training/commands that the other two do. He was a few sammiches shy of the picnic.
But after getting him acclimated, after he came to us at 2, I was on the floor, offering milk-bones, and I held one out to him. I was kinda near his mouth, and I brought it ever so closer to me. To my surprise he didn't get up to get it, but crawled, on his own. I told him, "Good crawl, Zack!" made a huge deal clapping hands and all, which he loves. He's always so proud of himself.
[nq:1]How about this one?: I had a French Bulldog overnight this past weekend; at dinner, he didn't respect his Wait and dove for Friday's bowl. Friday didn't break his stay, but looked at me with a "what the heck is goin' on?" look.[/nq]
Oh geeeze, isn't it fun when other ppl's pets can get away with stuff ours would never think of?
I
[nq:1]had a friend's dog here recently for three weeks: She taught Rocky to whine while he stared at food. Matt is not amused.[/nq]
I bet.
[nq:2]I tend to teach/train by osmosis, for most of the things, these days, but that's cuz I put in the work early.[/nq]
[nq:1]Yup, but osmosis training is simply consistency and understanding the dog's feedback, so early is good but not necessary. When ... all day long. Even once-a-week visiting dogs who get their only obedience training here are benefiting from consistency, albeit infrequent.[/nq]
Yup. It's the constant 'conversations' I have with my dogs, that really does it for us. They are always being talked about/to, played with, included in our daily goings on.
They aren't perfect dogs, by everyone's standards, but they do what I need for them to do, to be happy safe and loved. I can't do agility or other things like that, because of my knees, but I give them what they need to be really great companions.
I also constantly pull out more exercise for the brains, especially when we're at the lake, this way they don't just go boinking all over the whole time we're there, tho that's mainly what I love watching anyway. Emotion: smile

No, they aren't allowed to romp out the front door whenever someone comes in, but Boo will once in awhile, go out on the porch, if it's more than one or two ppl coming in. I let it go, it's not that important, I know she'll come back. This is a VERY quiet and very bumpy street, so the 4-5 drive-bys a day are at 5mph, if that.
She may even go as far as down the front steps, before we notice and ask her to come back in. She never flies out, not even when there are other dogs, ppl or animals there. What's coming in is ever so much more interesting to her to go farther than a piddle away, until she comes right back in. The only times she stalls is if she has to piddle and is in the middle of it.
[nq:1]How long is "a while"? I betchya that it'll be shorter than planned.[/nq]
Let's hope not! Yikes!
I promised Rudy I wouldn't get any more dogs, while he is with us. So these three are stuck here for what? He's promised me 35 yrs, and he's only 14 now, so about 21 years or so til the new pup!
Now I did say only two other dogs, to Rudy, so if, Dog forbid, something happens....it'll be a baby Goldie Treever, for Rudy, of course. Emotion: smile

)
MaryBeth

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Anonymous:

[nq:2]What I'd really want to know, though, is if your dogs do scream during your training?[/nq]
Mary Beth replied:
[nq:1]Not once, nope, never, nunca, no.[/nq]
Thank you.
[nq:1]They have their own big fenced yard, (we put this in ourselves..70X15' and 5' tall), but as they do NOT ... Wanna know how I stop them from jumping in if it's too cold? I simply say, not yell, 'leave it'.[/nq]
What do you do if they choose to disobey you?
[nq:1]They then focus only on me, and do whatever I ask of them. (As in, 'let's go home', 'let's get in the car for a ride', is that bad?)[/nq]
Not bad at all, if it always works. Well, does it?
[nq:1]Boo does squeal OFF leash on the way to the lake. Does that count?[/nq]
No. My question was specifically about TRAINING that causes dogs to scream. Some people here think that if the dog screams in pain while they train him "it's no big deal". I was curious to see how many of the regulars here share this belief.
[nq:1]HINT: If you're going to depend on whizzy for your info on others, you'd be better to read each post before you judge or even ask such silly questions. [/nq]You know what? When I first landed in this group, I thought - like everybody else - that Jerry was crazy; it couldn't be that all those nice people who were talking about their dogs with so much love were wrong, that their training was abusive and cruel. I thought that, if they punished their dogs in order to teach them, perhaps there was no other way. But then I read Jerry's manual, tried it on my dogs, and, look - it worked! What I hadn't been able to achieve by punishing was so easy to get by praising.

Yes, it was a difficult thing to grasp, that a dog would STOP doing something if you just praise him, but the results were so astounding and clear that I had no choice but accept them. I came here and shared my experience with the group, wondering why such a nonviolent method was shunned; I thought that perhaps the experts here could enlighten me on the method's shortcomings, but instead I was only given variants of the
"Jerry-is-nasty-and-we-don't-like-him" kind of reply. It was obvious that even experienced trainers hadn't ever tried Jerry's method on a real dog, their repeated attempts to dismiss the method's originality and its success were simply pathetic.
Now, let me ask you, if it IS possible to teach a dog WITHOUT making it suffer pain in the process, don't you think that any method that does resort to pain during training is abusive and unnecessarily cruel?
[nq:1]Don't know if you read my other posts, about Rudy's birthday, (did that make you sick?[/nq]
I've read them. No, they didn't make me sick (why would you think they might have, is beyond me), just sad... Sad about your mother who is dying, also sad about our dogs who are getting old... Your Rudy reminds me quite a lot of my Bonnie, who turned 13 a couple of months ago.
[nq:1]Or my other one inviting anyone here to visit my home and meet my dogs, and me. I have an ... reason to scream. Squeal in excitement, yes. If your dog/s, don't ever squeal in happiness and joy, you're missing out.[/nq]
Don't worry, they do all sorts of vocalizations. They don't scream in pain while I train them, though.
[nq:1]Not that I have anything to prove to you or others. Emotion: smile

I just find it funny that you seem to get your info from a looney.[/nq]
Please read the dialogues below between Janet B. and Handsome Jack Morrison, that's where from I got my info:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.pets.dogs.behavior/msg/b364e723ed67c26d?hl=en &
[nq:1]Did Fred admit (on the mail list) that he stimmed the wrong dog? Is it his response on the mail list that has you so concerned? Or his response at the seminar?[/nq]
Yes, he admitted it, and both.
[nq:1]But how would they know for sure that the dog had actually being stimmed??[/nq]
He apparently reacted rather dramatically.
[nq:1]A dog being stimmed isn't that unlike a dog not being stimmed. Maybe a twitch of ears, etc. How exactly did they KNOW?[/nq]
He was screaming.
[nq:1]Is that a good enough reason to dump on him? Don't you ever make mistakes? I know that I do.[/nq]
You bet I do. Not dumping on him, just not jumping on his bandwagon. I said I don't buy into the FH gig. You asked me to elaborate. I didn't set out to "dump" on him.
[nq:1]I hope you will do just that, Janet. If this was a discussion on another mail list, why not just redact the personal information and post the rest here?[/nq]
When and if I can find it.
[nq:1]Oh please, Janet. What was Fred supposed to do, get down on his knees and beg for forgiveness? Making a big fuss over an innocent mistake isn't something you'll find me doing very often, either.[/nq]
Admit his mistake and say - wow folks - be really careful that you've got the right button for the dog being worked.
[nq:1]I make it a point never to pass on information about people regarding things that might have happened or didn't happen, if I didn't see them happen or not happen myself. Even about people I don't like.[/nq]
It's not ab out liking or not liking Fred. Honestly, I don't think about him much at all! More than one person on a TRAINER'S list discussed this seminar.
[nq:1]you have no way of knowing if your "friends" might not have an agenda, etc.[/nq]
Trainers. Not friends, not people I have ever met.>>

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.pets.dogs.behavior/msg/1084a5b3954ae075?hl=en &
[nq:1]Janet, I have just spoken with "the horse." And here's the story of what happened, according to Fred. The incident ... and Fred even demonstrated how easily Sarah returned to the crate afterwards. Really, it wasn't that big of a deal.[/nq]
As you pointed out, I was not there and neither were you. I believe it's totally recoverable and Sarah trust him so why wouldn't it be? That wasn't the point - the point is that her initial reaction was NOT a good thing, and maybe he needs to learn how to tell the story a bit better.
[nq:1]As an e-collar trainer yourself, you know that radio frequencies in multi-dog settings can and do get screwed up, no matter what precautions you take, and when it does happen, it's not the end of the world.[/nq]
Haven't had it happen, but yes.
[nq:1]Now, he also told more me about the writer. And precisely what happened at the seminar she was at where Fred told this story. Fred doesn't think that she had an agenda, but that she's just a wincer.[/nq]
I don't doubt that, but the story was backed up by non-wincers (ones who criticized her leaving).
[nq:1]Number 6 was a huge Rotty, and he made a crying sound, just like he usually does when being worked, even without a collar.[/nq]
Yes, I have met the dog!
[nq:1]The dog was owned by someone who was already being trained by one of Fred's students. This owner is apparently on that same list, and apparently tried to explain all this to the writer of your snippet.[/nq]
Yes, I know the owner as well. She's a very sane person.
[nq:1]Fred also asked me to remind you to take a look at all the dogs in one of your own ... simply because you put a collar on it, or attached a leash to the collar, for the very first time?[/nq]
Not a lot, because my class is outside and they have leashes and collars on. I did have one Sibe puppy who after I outlasted him on "suspension" week 1, peed everytime I glanced in his direction. Most of the dogs I take to demo do a really good job right off. There WAS a dog several years ago who was a real PITA. He either planted his feet and screamed (didn't matter what collar) or forged. So we had 2 leashes and 2 collars. We had a prong for when he was lunging and a martingale for when he was planting. The only rule was that he MUST keep moving until I tell him otherwise. Those are always a treat.
[nq:1]I think the answer to that should be "Pretty often, now that I think about it" if you train very many dogs, and I think you do.[/nq]
It's rare that I put a new collar on the dog and then work the dog. At least not until I have the owner give it a spin.
[nq:1]But you work through it, don't you? And within a short time, the dog starts to respond favorably, etc. Again, their initial response wasn't such a big deal after all, was it?[/nq]
I have certainly had my share of screamers (and on buckle collars yet!).
[nq:1]Janet, I'm going from memory here, and I may have forgotten something, and I may even be misstating something, but I think it well represents what Fred just told me on the phone.[/nq]
I believe you and I believe him. The fact remains that even non-wincers were uncomfortable and that made me wonder. I'm definitely a "pick yourself up and brush yourself off" thinker, and didn't think the dog was permanently damaged. >>
[nq:1]Have a nice day. Emotion: smile

[/nq]
My day has been great, I hope that so was yours.
[nq:1]MaryBeth PS Do YOUR dogs ever scream?[/nq]
Scream in pain, when I'm training them? No, they don't. Telling them what good dogs they are doesn't seem to elicit this kind of response - yet your friends here think that to praise a dog when s/he is doing something "bad" is more cruel than making her/him scream (for "their own good", of course).
[nq:1]I mean, if we're taking a survey here..[/nq]
Be my guest.
Lucy

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RE: Education about equipment page 9

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