RE: Goldendoodle golden-poo page 2

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Melinda Shore:
[nq:1]First of all, while it is a noble thing to try and prevent HD in dogs..testing in no way prevents the breeding dogs from having HD free offspring.[/nq]
It's also true that in those breeds that have gotten religion about testing and about not breeding dysplastic dogs, they've been able to enormously reduce the incidence of hip dysplasia in the breed over the course of just two decades.
I reckon there are two reasons for your dishonesty about this: 1) you've got a financial interest in selling doodle dogs, and 2) you're rationalizing your own irresponsibility.
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed)

If you can't say it clearly, you don't understand it yourself John Searle
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Shelly:
[nq:1]First of all, while it is a noble thing to try and prevent HD in dogs..testing in no way prevents the breeding dogs from having HD free offspring. That's a fact whether you want to believe it or not.[/nq]
Testing for HD is not fool-proof, but it does stack the deck in favor of healthier dogs.
So, do you test your dogs for HD? Do you test/screen them for other diseases? Which ones? What sort of health guarantee do you provide? How do you determine which of your dogs are worthy of being bred? What sorts of homes do you place your dogs in? What do you do if a placement does not work out? And, most importantly, why do you breed?
[nq:1]We have created Goldendoodles and other Poodle hybrids since 1999. We have had consistancy in solid grounded..very intelligent...loving and outgoing temperaments on our hybrids and we've had consistancy in coat.[/nq]
Golden retrievers and Poodles are not separate species. What you are "creating" are mixed breed dogs, not hybrids.
[nq:1]You are also incorrect about calling the Goldendoodle and other hybrids "designer" dogs. This dog's mixture began in Australia for a purpose. It was to help those own an assistance dog who had allergies to heavy shedding purebred dogs.[/nq]
That program was also, if I recall correctly, a failure.

Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
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Sionnach:
[nq:1]Tara, unfortunately your post in here is not accurate 100% and is misleading.[/nq]
TWANNGG! That's the sound of the irony meters all blowing up..

Let's see now - on one hand we have Tara, who has no motivation for her post other than the good of dogs and dog owners. On the other hand, we have you, who is ADVERTISING a "product" that you sell. I think the average bear can figure out which one of you is more likely to present information which is "inaccurate and misleading".
[nq:2]First of all, while it is a noble[/nq]
[nq:1]thing to try and prevent HD in dogs..testing in no way prevents the breeding dogs from having HD free offspring.[/nq]
Well, DUH. Of course TESTING doesn't prevent anything. However, waiting until your "breeding dogs" are old enough to have a reasonably accurate test profile, and then choosing NOT TO BREED depending on the testing, will go a long way towards reducing the incidence and severity of HD and other inheritible disorders.
[nq:1]Humans haven't perfected disease free humans and I'm not sure why people like yourself believe it is possible for the dog.[/nq]
Nobody said, or even implied, that it's possible to do so; and indeed, since many diseases are INFECTIOUS or ENVIRONMENTALLY INDUCED, it would be pretty silly to think that genetic testing can prevent all disease. Nor did anybody say or imply that it can prevent all inheritable disorders, either; but see my statement above about REDUCING them. That has very much been done both in humans and in canines.
[nq:1]We have created Goldendoodles and other Poodle hybrids since 1999.[/nq]
Oooh, wow, a whole SIX YEARS! Or, IOW, you started "creating" crossbred dogs right around the time they became a lucrative fad. Oh, and drop the "hybrid" marketing ***, will you? The term "crossbreed" has served dog breeders just fine for hundreds of years, and is a far more accurate term.

We
[nq:1]have had consistancy in solid grounded..very intelligent...loving and outgoing temperaments on our hybrids and we've had consistancy in coat.[/nq]
Hm. I don't think six years is really long enough to be making claims of "consistency"...
[nq:1]The only inconsistancy we've had with hybrids is individual sizes because they are indeed a hybrid.[/nq]
No, they're not. They're CROSSBREEDS. Golden Retrievers and Poodles are the same species.
[nq:1]Our Goldendoodles are created with dogs who have over 400 OFA good, Champion ancestors[/nq]
What about the other inheritable disorders carried by both breeds?
[nq:1]that came from some of the best purebred Golden Retriever and Poodle breeders out there..some do not even exist any more since our pedigrees date back well into the early 1930s.[/nq]
Any breeder of any pedigreed dog can say the same. And anybody with any intelligence and/or knowlege of dogs knows that pedigrees are just family trees, not some sort of mystical guarantee of quality.
[nq:1]You are also incorrect about calling the Goldendoodle and other hybrids "designer" dogs. This dog's mixture began in Australia for a purpose. It was to help those own an assistance dog who had allergies to heavy shedding purebred dogs.[/nq]
That's the first time I've ever heard that claim made for the "Goldendoodle". I know it's true that the orginal cross of LABRADORS and Poodles was made with that goal in mind; I also know that everything I've ever read or heard says that it was an experiment which FAILED.
[nq:1]Also, I don't know which breeder sits back raking in thousands of dollars[/nq]
It depends on your definition of "breeder"; responsible breeders rarely turn a profit, but puppymillers, puppy farmers, and even backyard breeders often make a profit because they don't spend money on health care. There are dozens of Amish in my area who turn quite a tidy profit on "hybrid" dogs, because they treat them like any other livestock (and it's a big fallacy to think that just because they're "plain people" they always treat livestock optimally).
I, personally, don't have a major problem with people responsibly crossing WORKING dogs to get desired working qualities. However, when thousands of wonderful mixed and crossbred dogs are dying in shelters, I have little or no respect for people who create more dogs - regardless of whether those dogs are crossbred or "pure" - simply for the pet market, and even less for those who make exaggerated false claims about the quality of those dogs based on the myth of "hybrid vigor".
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Tara:
[nq:1]Tara, unfortunately your post in here is not accurate 100% and is misleading. First of all, while it is a noble thing to try and prevent HD in dogs..testing in no way prevents the breeding dogs from having HD free offspring.[/nq]
Are you kidding??
I mean, if you just test the dogs, and then breed them no matter what the results say, then you'd be right (horribly horribly irresponsible, but right). That would not prevent CHD in the offspring. Testing isn't like a disease condom that allows you to breed your dogs while protecting against THAT disease. But I'm assuming you know it doesn't work that way..
[nq:1]That's a fact whether you want to believe it or not. Many breeders who have their breeding dogs tested still produce dysplastic puppies[/nq]
The more a breeder tests for those diseases, and the more they REMOVE the effected dogs from their breeding lines. That's not going to prevent all incidents of CHD, but it sure goes a long way to the overal imrovement in the health of that breed. In that, you're absolutely wrong. The numbers of dogs with CHD has been proven (long term proof too, by the way) that testing, and then removing the affected dogs from the breeding pool, drastically reduces the incidence of CHD in the offspring.

I'm shocked, and a little bit frightened that you either don't know that or that you deny the facts as they've been determined over the last few decades of work.
[nq:1]and some of those breeders were show breeders or veterinarians.[/nq]
I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Some of the most irresponsible breeders I have come across have been veterinarians. And there are plenty of show or performance breeders that don't qualify as responsible about what kind of puppies they're producing.

Are you suggesting that if other people can get away with being irresponsible and producing sick puppies, then you should be able to get away with it too? Otherwise, I'm totaly unclear on what the point of that comment was.
[nq:1]Until a genetic laboratory for dogs can create DNA markers that can provide a breeder with "carrier" information on their breeding dogs...there is no test on the face of this earth that can guarantee anyone...breeder or buyer...a disease free dog.[/nq]
I'm not even talking about "guarantees" here. I'm talking about reasonable effort based on what IS available now. And you've already argued that its somehow pointless to do even the most basic testing because you might* end up with a dysplastic pup or two over the years? Purebreed dog or not, I would *never get a pup from a breeder with that attitude about testing.
[nq:1]Humans haven't perfected disease free humans and I'm not sure why people like yourself believe it is possible for the dog.[/nq]
Again..you're kidding, right? You have to be.
People have not been the sole product of selective breeding for the last umpteen hundred years. And yet you want to compare the two?
[nq:1]We have created Goldendoodles and other Poodle hybrids since 1999. We have had consistancy in solid grounded..very intelligent...loving and outgoing temperaments on our hybrids and we've had consistancy in coat.[/nq]
Well, that's the exact same thing every single one of my clients was told by their* Golden/Poodle breeders. In fact, I have yet to come across a breeder (responsible or horribly irresponsible) who DOESN'T say exactly that. The Golden/Poodle cross that was nearly crippled by her dysplasia before she was a year old..well, her breeder told the owner the *exact same thing. So those words have long since ceased to mean anything.

So, if every single habitual breeder (for lack of a better term) says the same thing about how great their dogs are, how is one to know iin advance.

Well, the proof is in what you do to SHOW that this is what you're producing. If you don't at least do the basics of genetic health testing, and the very basics of training and working with your dogs in a field where third party assessments exist, then you, quite simply, are not proving anything at all. Unless those basics are happening, they're just words that are likely untrue.
[nq:1]The only inconsistancy we've had with hybrids is individual sizes because they are indeed a hybrid. Lumping the "Goldendoodle" into a whole is quite unfair to the Goldendoodle. It would be similar to lump all purebred dogs into categories[/nq]
Um, you are aware that they ARE lumped into categories...right? Labrador Retrievers, German Shepherd Dogs, Pharoah Hounds, etc.
[nq:1]because temperaments, coat...etc..really has to do with the breeder...[/nq]
Sure. That's why simply saying that you want a Labrador Retriever isn't saying much. Getting one from a pet shop or a BYB (which is where most "Oodle" crosses originate from) would produce FAR different results than getting one from a responsible breeder. Even within that category, there are vast differences between working lines, hunting lines, show lines, etc.
[nq:1]their breeding stock and their experience. If a breeder has crappy breeding stock, they will have crappy offspring.[/nq]
Of course. And I have yet to come across an Oodle breeder who starts with that stock who also produces consitantly sound dogs.

I also have yet to come across an Oodle breeder who is aware of (or admits to) some of the behavioral problems that their dogs tend to show. And that's from the Oodle breeders that I have come across that actually at least do some of the things that responsible breeders would do to prove they're standing behind their dogs. I have yet to come across one that doesn anything that truly tests temperament or trainability, though. And I think THAT is a MAJOR problem..and why we're seeing so many behavioral issues in those dogs.
[nq:1]Our Goldendoodles are created with dogs who have over 400 OFA good, Champion ancestors that came from some of the best purebred Golden Retriever and Poodle breeders out there..[/nq]
How far back are those champions?
You see, there's a joke about that: If you go back two or three generations, then EVERY dog of a popular breed has at least a few champions..including the dogs found in shelters.
[nq:1]some do not even exist any more since our pedigrees date back well into the early 1930s.[/nq]
Um, this means nothing. You know that, right?
[nq:1]You are also incorrect about calling the Goldendoodle and other hybrids "designer" dogs. This dog's mixture began in Australia for a purpose. It was to help those own an assistance dog who had allergies to heavy shedding purebred dogs.[/nq]
You do know they scrapped that program due to it not really working out that well..right? They couldn't get consistancy in the dogs they were trying to produce (something you are alleging you've managed to do fine, when an entire research project couldn't figure out how to create consistancy in temperament and structure)
And,unless the purpose of your breeding program is producing solid, reliable low shedding service dogs, then you ARE simply producing "designer dogs". You really don't get to have it both ways.
[nq:1]Also, I don't know which breeder sits back raking in thousands of dollars and its obvious you are not a breeder because if you were, you would not be making that statement.[/nq]
Um, I didn't say that. Read for content.
I DID say that the purchaser would be forking over that kind of cash to the breeder..which is true. For some reason, Oodle breeders see the need to charge more than double what responsible breeders tend to charge for their responsigbly bred purebreed dogs.
[nq:1]Being a breeder is a never ending job that goes around the clock, seven days a week with no vacation ... and puppies..vet costs are ever increasing year by year and there is nothing cheap about raising dogs and breeding them.[/nq]
Why don't you read a little bit in thse newsgroups before you spout off about what people do or do not know.
People here are very aware of what goes into reasonably responsible breeding. I'm glad you have a clue about that too.
[nq:1]Breeding is NOT a 9-5 job that provides one with a paycheck. You need a reality check on your comment about that part.[/nq]
No. You need to read what I actually wrote. I didn't say that.
[nq:1]That's a dream...not reality! I wish I could sit back...collect the cash and take a trip around the world from selling dogs...wouldn't THAT be a hoot! Dream on.[/nq]
Oh wake up. Stop spouting off about something I didn't even say.
[nq:1]I don't know of too many people willing to shovel dog poop for a living that has no insurance, pension ... when people such as yourself put down not only an incredible and terrific dog...but also the ones who create them.[/nq]
Actually, I'm only putting down the ones who create them. Dogs are wonderful,no matter what package they come in. That's why people who irresponsibly create them without a deep understanding of those ramifications *** me off.
Tara
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Marcel Beaudoin:
[nq:1]Tara, unfortunately your post in here is not accurate 100% and is misleading. First of all, while it is a ... haven't perfected disease free humans and I'm not sure why people like yourself believe it is possible for the dog.[/nq]
While it is not possible (yet) to completely eliminate the possibility of HD (or any other number of Genetic problems with dogs) careful breeding and genetic testing/matching can significantly reduce the possibility that the result of such a breeding will have HD or something else.
Marcel
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Marcel Beaudoin:
[nq:1]The replies you have received are complete nonsense. If you want to know the real deal about the Goldendoodle..which happens to be a registered hybrid BTW...go to our site athttp://www.goldendoodleworld.com [/nq]
Or, better yet, go to www.petfinder.com, and do a search in your local area for Golden retriever mix or Poodle mix. Betcha you find a hell of a lot more for a hell of a lot less.
[nq:1]You will find them available for less than $1500 as the Goldendoodle's popularity has soared since 1997 and is steadily becoming more popular than the Golden Retriever, itself. The Goldendoodle...when created correctly sheds very little.[/nq]
BWAHAHAH
You don't crete a dog. You breed a dog and hope that you get what you want. Anyone (And I mean ANYONE, respectable breeder or not) who guarantees anything about the temperment of the dog, health of the dog etc (beyond the very basics) is either clueless or lieing. And when you are mixing two breeds, the guarantees that you could reasonably give drop even lower.
[nq:1]The person who told you they are heavy shedders must have come across a Goldendoodle that was created improperly. We've ... many coat changes and phases, you don't see the hair shedding. That doesn't mean they are a non shedding dog.[/nq]
So what you are saying is that every one of your golden retriever/ poodle mixes inherits only the shedding style of the poodle. Every. Single. One. If so, then congratulations Sir, you have managed to beat genetics.
[nq:1]Even a Chinese Crested Hairless dog sheds. Someone here recommended you check the dog pound. Fortunately for now, the GOldendoodle ... why you'll need to find someone who is either "re-homing" a doodle or go through a breeder who creates them.[/nq]
Despite what this guy says, the pound is still the best place to find a mixed breed dog. Maybe not right away, but you will be able to find one.
Marcel
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Tara:
@mid.individual.net:
[nq:2]We have created Goldendoodles and other Poodle hybrids since 1999.[/nq]
[nq:1]Oooh, wow, a whole SIX YEARS! Or, IOW, you started "creating" crossbred dogs right around the time they became a ... The term "crossbreed" has served dog breeders just fine for hundreds of years, and is a far more accurate term.[/nq]
Funny, on their web page, they have some weird computer guy that says they've been breeding poodle mixes (they call them something else, of course) for 10 years. They specifically say they've been breeding them since 1996.
They also say its important that the breeder have basic knowledge of genetics. You'd think someone with a basic understanding of genetics would understand that this breeding combo has nothing whatsoever to do with hybrids.
[nq:2]Our Goldendoodles are created with dogs who have over 400 OFA good, Champion ancestors[/nq]
[nq:1]What about the other inheritable disorders carried by both breeds?[/nq]
Well, they don't even test for CHD in the first place, so its highly unlikely that they'd be testing for ahything else. On their website, these numbers are presented a wee bit more "clearly" (although still used in an incredibly misleading way)

Here's the wording on their website:
"Our Poodles have over 400 OFA Good, Champion ancestors within their lineage"
This is, apparently, the total combined number that includes the grand total of tested and/or championed dogs in their dogs' lineage.

Being "within" a dog's "lineage" could certainly include being a distant second cousin. And talk about resting on the laurels of all the work that's been done before they got their dogs. They haven't OFAd dog 1. Funny that they say testing doesn't prevent illness in the offspring, but they keep mentioning that other* people tested their dogs that *their dogs are related to. Apparently THAT'S supposed to mean somthing, though the poodle mix breeder testing their own dogs would, apparently, mean nothing at all. Sounds like a tap dance.

The page that the above quote comes from reads like the world's longest, and most misleading rant, by the way. Its kind of scary.

http://lrkgoldendoodles.homestead.com/goldendoodlefactsindex.html

Thye reimnd me of a less informed version of the poodle/Golden breeders I've come across that knew at least a little bit about what the myths involved were. Unfortunately, even those breeders were still breeding some weird temperament issues. I notice that this breeder has that excuse all wrapped up in advance, since they 100% blame all temperament issues on the owners. They don't believe in a genetic component to behavior. Oh joy.
tara
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Tara:
[nq:1]Fortunately for now, the GOldendoodle rarely finds itself in such a place which is why you'll need to find someone who is either "re-homing" a doodle or go through a breeder who creates them.[/nq]
shelters and rescue groups would vehemently disagree with that statement.

But then, since so few of these poodle mix breeders keep track of all of the pups they produce over the lives of those pups, they would really have no way of knowing whether or not that's even true.

Tara
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KWBrown:
[nq:1]If they truly wanted to start a breed, why not use the Curly Coated Retriever, already in existence? OH... because they can't claim dog$ price$[/nq]
I understand where you're going, but the Curly is a hard dog. You'd need to do a fair bit of temperament tweaking... and then it wouldn't be a Curly any more.
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