[nq:1]Perhaps he feels he's running, [nq:1]He started trying to assert, in thread

diddy:

in thread "Tee" (Email Removed) whittled the following words:
[nq:1]I haven't intervened except when he's about to mark her or, occasionally, when we're giving out attention and he bodily ... because I don't want to give Joe Joe any further reason to feel a need to prove himself with her.[/nq]
Perhaps he feels he's running the show (obviously) Perhaps it's time you establish that you are the HEAD HONCHO/BIG CHEESE. Start him on NILIF and make a stand that he will NOT behave like this in your presence, on your dog, on your property .. or EVER. You want this to stop, and it WILL stop right now.
Quit playing head games with him, because he's winning. Take over.

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Tee:

[nq:1]Perhaps he feels he's running the show (obviously)[/nq]
With Fancy I'm sure he does.
[nq:1]Perhaps it's time you establish that you are the HEAD HONCHO/BIG CHEESE.[/nq]
In the entire scheme of things he seems to comprehend that very well.
[nq:1]Start him on NILIF and make a stand that he will NOT behave like this in your presence, on your ... this to stop, and it WILL stop right now. Quit playing head games with him, because he's winning. Take over.[/nq]
Diddy I don't see how NILIF is going to help. *I* don't have a problem with him. He listens to me, obeys me, he is made to do things like sit or down before getting treats or attention and he does these things immediatley & willingly.
The only* time I have to do anything with him other than interrupting him for marking is when/if he gets too demanding when attention is being given out. In those instances I give him a command, make him do something while one of us pets Fancy and he complies. This vying for attention is something all Boxers do and I've always had to intervene with any other foster dog I've had and usually it was me putting Fancy in a timeout because *she was the culprit.
I don't see how implementing hardcore NILIF is going to help unless you're suggesting I do this with him while very visibly elevating Fancy in the hierarchy. In that regard I can only foresee a bigger problem surfacing later. I may be wrong but since the humans aren't having any problems with Joe Joe and he's not thumbing his nose at me (I don't believe he connects that peeing on Fancy is displeasing me) nor is he trying to challenge me then I just don't get what NILIF will do except to potentially alienate him. When I say jump he jumps so what more can I accomplish?

Tara

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Mary Healey:

[nq:1]He started trying to assert dominance in his last home so I'm guessing its something he's maturing into but he's ... away. At the rate he's going I can't help but wonder if he'll become aggressive with her before too long.[/nq]
Maybe it's not Fancy that's provoking him. Maybe it's you. Boy, that sounds awful. What I mean is, maybe he's displacing his dominance displays onto Fancy because you won't let him pull that crap with you?

Both Ranger and Noah would pick on some other dog when I'd (in their mind, anyway) "thwarted" them. It didn't have to be a dominance thing, and it didn't have to be a correction for bad behavior. If I wouldn't put Noah to bed when he wanted to go, he'd pick a fight with one of the other dogs. One of the reasons I'm trying to reduce the dervish-dog routine that starts all our walks is that Ranger invariably snarks at Duke, and one of these days Duke's gonna get annoyed enough to do something about it.

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diddy:

in thread "Tee" (Email Removed) whittled the following words:
[nq:1]When I say jump he jumps so what more can I accomplish? Tara[/nq]
Perplexing and interesting problem

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Melinda Shore:

[nq:1]I don't know if I'm seeing something that's not there or if I'm spying something that could give me a ... as from those who have, that I don't know anymore if I'm overanalyzing or uncovering clues the deeper I dig.[/nq]
I've found that dominant adolescent dogs who are just coming into their own can be incredibly clumsy in how they express themselves and sometimes just don't know when enough is enough. I like to make sure that there's minimal confusion about pack structure (particularly that it's my house and my rules), that mealtime and anything else involving desirable resources is well-structured, and that behaviors I don't like are not allowed, period. I don't like the way a lot of people talk about dominance - I tend to see it as an exercise of prerogative, and I've found that to be a more helpful way of dealing with pack issues than the more typical "dominant dogs eat first" kinds of stuff.

Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed)

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

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shelly:

[nq:1]Maybe it's not Fancy that's provoking him. Maybe it's you. Boy, that sounds awful. What I mean is, maybe he's displacing his dominance displays onto Fancy because you won't let him pull that crap with you?[/nq]
oh man! i should have thought of that, because it's exactly what harriet does.
[nq:1]Both Ranger and Noah would pick on some other dog when I'd (in their mind, anyway) "thwarted" them.[/nq]
yep. harriet tries to sit on elliott's head or tries to boss the cats when she doesn't get her way.
[nq:1]If I wouldn't put Noah to bed when he wanted to go, he'd pick a fight with one of the other dogs.[/nq]
that was a biggie for harriet. she's learned to put herself to bed, but it was a PITA to get it through her thick head that she didn't need to have a melt down whenever i stayed up late. now, she brings me her binkie and i tuck her in and it's A-OK.
[nq:1]One of the reasons I'm trying to reduce the dervish-dog routine that starts all our walks is that Ranger invariably snarks at Duke, and one of these days Duke's gonna get annoyed enough to do something about it.[/nq]
that, too, sounds familiar.

shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net >> http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com

It's when the parents are cannibals that the kids turn out like this. Melora (Rasputina)

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Sionnach:

[nq:1]Most of the people who hang out on dog groups spend a lot of time training and working with their dogs, and they don't just decideto "live with it" if their dog pulls like a train and drags them down the street.[/nq]
Perhaps so - but you just said "pull", without the following "like a train, drag down the street".
In any case, my dogs pull on leash, occasionally hard, and it's not a big deal to me.
And as you can see from my sig line (which I rarely bother with), you'd be making a very wrong assumption if you were to extrapolate from that to thinking that my dogs aren't highly trained.
Sarah F.
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Tee:

[nq:1]I've found that dominant adolescent dogs who are just coming into their own can be incredibly clumsy in how they ... a more helpful way of dealing with pack issues than the more typical "dominant dogs eat first" kinds of stuff.[/nq]
Help me please because I don't know what I'm supposed to take away from this. 90% of the dogs' time is spent napping and being left alone (by people). They are fed once per day, between 6-7pm and both pick at their food with Fancy generally waiting until around 1:30-2:00am to actually eat what's in her bowl. They spend about 2 hours a day outside, about 30 minutes of it for various leg-stretches and 1.5 hours generally out front with Scott.
IOW that's the structure with only two dogs and I don't know what/how/why else I should change or become involved with the structure. I may be acting dense because of all the stress going on and now people saying Joe Joe might be redirecting on Fancy because of Me. Frankly it looks and seems like he's just marking her because he wants to and that its either a weird habit thing or a consistent need to push Fancy further and further beneath him.

It seems to me that interfering at all with pack structure will only aggravate the existing problem. He seems hellbent on being God of the canines here and she seems fully resigned to letting him be that way. For whatever reason its not enough for him. If I change anything, show any kind of preference or otherwise make interfering gestures then how do I know its not going to send this problem into the deep end?
I swear I'm not being snarky I'm just at the end of my rope at this point. I just want to know why and how to fix it, or at least how to fix it, and I keep running around in circles with new suppositions popping up left and right and am still no closer to know how to fix the problem. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that I've become blindingly dense to the obvious at this point.

Tara

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Melinda Shore:

[nq:1]I swear I'm not being snarky I'm just at the end of my rope at this point.[/nq]
I understand completely (I've had dog situations in the past that just left me feeling desperate and helpless). I don't know how to fix it, but I do know what's worked with inappropriate dominance expression in my own dogs (which has not included marking each other, but rather stuff like the phase Emmett went through when he didn't think the other dogs should be allowed to eat).
I do agree that a behaviorist might be just the ticket. You may be able to find someone who can help you remotely, or it may be worth it to bundle the dogs in the car and drive a couple of hours to get an in-person consultation. If you want to blow some bucks you can even pay someone's travel expenses to come visit you.

Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed)

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

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RE: Help w/Joe Joe!! page 15

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