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Jack \The Unpalatable Barbarian\ Morrison:

()

IMO, if more attention had been paid to Health(including structure) and Working Ability, you wouldn't now have those functional problems.

Selecting for a stronger bite capibility might have retained that head you're now looking for.
Form follows function.
[nq:2]I'll take a healthy, but butt-ugly pig of a dog ... ripe old age of 6, any day of the week.[/nq]
[nq:1]IF that butt ugly dog has good functional structure, I'll agree with you. But most of the ones with good functional structure aren't that ugly.[/nq]
Remember, I include structure within health?
Form follows function.
If he can do the job well, he'll most likely all have the right angles, and look like pretty much he's supposed to look.
[nq:2]Who cares how pretty a dog looks if he acts like Cujo and goes lame at the age of 3?[/nq]
[nq:1]Good point.[/nq]
Why, thank you!

Jack "The Unpalatable Barbarian" Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to send me e-mail
The "Religion of Peace," up close and personal:
http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020 MemriTV Popup/video 480x360.asp?ClipMediaID=60227&ak=null

Yo, Froggy! Why not offer them "land for peace":
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20086

Wake up, Europe, you've a war on your hands!
http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn06.html

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Robin Nuttall:

Given the hand-wringing hysteria many Americans (including a bunch of dobe people who should know better) go into at the mere thought of (gasp) teaching a dog to bite, that's not terribly likely in this country. In Germany, where dogs must have a Schutzhund 1 to be bred and no missing teeth are allowed, they have much better heads.
[nq:1]Form follows function. If he can do the job well, he'll most likely all have the right angles, and look like pretty much he's supposed to look.[/nq]
Now here we disagree. I think there are way too many dogs out there who can do the job superbly well but who break down in 3 or 4 years because their structure can't take it. To the professionals training them it's no biggie just bring on another dog.It's not just whether the dog can perform, it's can he perform at a high level for years. As I'm sure you know, there is nothing worse than the dog with all the drive and ability in the world who can't do his job because he's structurally so faulty. I know a lab like this. Great drive, super attitude, lots of speed and intensity in her work. Probably the worst front I've ever seen, and also high and straight in the rear.

Broken down by age 3, elbow surgery at 4, totally lame and incapable of doing more than just walking around the property at age 6. She screams and cries to go, and she will try a hitching paroday of a run and yelp when she does it. Will still try to fetch as long as her owner will throw. It's heartbreaking because we can't sit down and tell her why she can't work any more.
[nq:2]Good point.[/nq]
[nq:1]Why, thank you![/nq]
Yes, good point, but you can have both. You really can have good looking dogs that can also work. But it's more work to do it. I still maintain that any breeder who breeds for ONE thing only, whatever it is, will put a breed in trouble.

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Jack \The Unpalatable Barbarian\ Morrison:

()
[nq:2]IMO, if more attention had been paid to Health(including structure) ... retained that head you're now looking for. Form follows function.[/nq]
[nq:1]Given the hand-wringing hysteria many Americans (including a bunch of dobe people who should know better) go into at the ... dogs must have a Schutzhund 1 to be bred and no missing teeth are allowed, they have much better heads.[/nq]
Which pretty much proves my point.
[nq:2]Form follows function. If he can do the job well, ... angles, and look like pretty much he's supposed to look.[/nq]
[nq:1]Now here we disagree. I think there are way too many dogs out there who can do the job superbly ... 4 years because their structure can't take it. To the professionals training them it's no biggie just bring on another dog.[/nq]
I don't think we disagree at all. Maybe I'm not being clear enough.

The main reason I have Health (including structure) paramount is to avoid just the result you're talking about above.

I'm sure that you know how expensive it is to campaign a field-trial retriever, and that they don't really start to excel until they're 4+ years old, so why would a performance breeder (even one with deep, deep pockets) ever want to breed dogs that break down before they even get a chance to win?
[nq:1]It's not just whether the dog can perform, it's can he perform at a high level for years.[/nq]
Absolutely!
[nq:1]As I'm sure you know, there is nothing worse than the dog with all the drive and ability in the world who can't do his job because he's structurally so faulty.[/nq]
Absolutely! That's why I put Health(including structure) Number 1.
[nq:1]I know a lab like this.[/nq]
I know lots of Labs like that, and it's a crying shame, IMO.

()
[nq:2]Why, thank you![/nq]
[nq:1]Yes, good point, but you can have both.[/nq]
Yes, you can have some of each, but some things are more important than others.
At least to a performance breeder.
[nq:1]You really can have good looking dogs that can also work. But it's more work to do it. I still maintain that any breeder who breeds for ONE thing only, whatever it is, will put a breed in trouble.[/nq]
Boy, you'll get no argument from me on that one.
I have arranged a special place in hell (I know people down there), for example, those Lab breeders who breed "for color."

"We specialize in chocolate Labs!"

Jack "The Unpalatable Barbarian" Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to send me e-mail
The "Religion of Peace," up close and personal:
http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020 MemriTV Popup/video 480x360.asp?ClipMediaID=60227&ak=null

Yo, Froggy! Why not offer them "land for peace":
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20086

Wake up, Europe, you've a war on your hands!
http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn06.html

This thread originates from within 'usenet', and as such the content and users are not guaranteed to have been moderated by our community.

Robin Nuttall:

[nq:1]I don't think we disagree at all. Maybe I'm not being clear enough. The main reason I have Health (including ... with deep, deep pockets) ever want to breed dogs that break down before they even get a chance to win?[/nq]
Well different breeds and sports vary. So in something like schutzhund, you bring a dog out at 2 or 3, trial it heavily, and if it's broken down by 5 or 6 you just bring out the next one.
Now me, I think the huge amount of time spent just getting a dog ready to be competitive in agiliy makes good structure/health imperative. I think the average age of World Team dogs is about 7, and most have been competing since 18 months to 2 years.
[nq:2]You really can have good looking dogs that can also ... only, whatever it is, will put a breed in trouble.[/nq]
[nq:1]Boy, you'll get no argument from me on that one. I have arranged a special place in hell (I know people down there), for example, those Lab breeders who breed "for color." "We specialize in chocolate Labs!"[/nq]
I have two words for you. Albino Dobermans.

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Judy:

[nq:2]I have arranged a special place in hell (I know ... breeders who breed "for color." "We specialize in chocolate Labs!"[/nq]
[nq:1]I have two words for you. Albino Dobermans.[/nq]
I cannot even imagine albino dobermans.
But for me it's three words: Toy White Schnauzers

God, every breed has them, doesn't it?
~~Judy

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Sionnach:

[nq:1]I cannot even imagine albino dobermans.[/nq]
Unfortunately, they exist - sold as "rare" "White" dobes, with the "breeders" usually selling their buyers a bill of goods that the dog isn't an albino.
The owner of the one I met was vehement that her dog was WHITE, not an albino. Problem was, the dog was OBVIOUSLY albino; white-haired, pink-skinned, and blue-eyed, with clearly defective sight and smaller than normal eyes.
[nq:1]God, every breed has them, doesn't it?[/nq]
Yep. There are asshats out there breeding "miniature" Jack Russells (runts with achondroplasia)... and then there was the person who came on one of the lists a few years back with pictures of the "rare" BLUE MERLE JRT a friend had paid big bucks for. Pup was cute as the dickens, and very clearly an Aussie or BC mix.

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Scott T. Jensen:

[nq:2]I just finished watching the Nova program "Dogs and More ... to me makes perfect sense. Are any breeders doing this?[/nq]
[nq:1]I'm not sure that one can define what "perfect pet" means as a general term, let alone as a breeding ... my idea of a perfect pet for me is significantly different from your idea of a perfect pet for you.[/nq]
Whoa! It wasn't my statement but one expert's on that Nova DVD. Hasn't anyone else seen it?
As for myself, I am not a breeder. I have no plans of being a breeder. I have always wanted at least one dog and since the doodle dogs have come about, I might finally be able to have a dog. I have allergies to dogs that shed, but don't want a poodle's personality. I'm going to start another thread about doodle dogs as I have questions about them as well.

Scott Jensen

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Get it answered at Boarding School Forums.
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Melinda Shore:

[nq:1]I have allergies to dogs that shed, but don't want a poodle's personality.[/nq]
If you don't like the poodle's personality, why on earth would you want a "doodle" dog?

Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed)

So far this year, homebuilding industry insiders have sold $976 million worth of their stock.

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Scott T. Jensen:

[nq:2]I have allergies to dogs that shed, but don't want a poodle's personality.[/nq]
[nq:1]If you don't like the poodle's personality, why on earth would you want a "doodle" dog?[/nq]
Because I'm hoping their other half will have a more compatible personality and that will at least moderate, if not dominate their poodle personality traits.
Scott Jensen

Got a question about boarding schools?
Get it answered at Boarding School Forums.
http://www.boardingschoolforums.org /

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RE: Is there a best pet dog competition and breeders? page 2

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