[nq:1]And obedience training helps make, [nq:2]And obedience training helps make, [nq:1]Or how

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Melinda Shore:

[nq:1]I guess Matt that for me submission is an emotive term. I dont like meekness- I want a confident obedient dog. I think its possible.[/nq]
If your primary concern is having your dogs get along, it's a guarantee that you're more likely to have problems if you ignore pack structure than if you respect pack structure. If your primary concern is anthropomorphizing your dogs and hoping that if you treat them like humans they'll think like humans, you're more likely to have fights. Your choice.
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed)

Make it a Sony-free holiday.

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sighthounds & siberians:

[nq:2]I guess Matt that for me submission is an emotive ... want a confident obedient dog. I think its possible. RRR[/nq]
[nq:1]But apparently your methods have failed because you have a fearful, timid dog! Confidence is gained in knowing their role, and that you are making the decisions and they don't have to.[/nq]
And obedience training helps make them more confident because they know what they are and aren't allowed/supposed to do and don't have to guess.
[nq:1]I am always confident bringing another dog into my home, because I know my current dog(s) are confident and obedient. If I had a timid dog I would work to fix her problems first.[/nq]
I have a couple of timid dogs, and their problems aren't fixable, but I don't worry about bringing other dogs into our home because my dogs know that that decision is mine to make.
Mustang Sally

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Janet B:

[nq:1]And obedience training helps make them more confident because they know what they are and aren't allowed/supposed to do and ... don't worry about bringing other dogs into our home because my dogs know that that decision is mine to make.[/nq]
Yup - that's what dog ownership needs to be, but RRR seems to think that dogs need to be her(?) equals. Wonder is s/he sleeps in the garage too?

Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

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sighthounds & siberians:

[nq:2]And obedience training helps make them more confident because they ... my dogs know that that decision is mine to make.[/nq]
[nq:1]Yup - that's what dog ownership needs to be, but RRR seems to think that dogs need to be her(?) equals. Wonder is s/he sleeps in the garage too?[/nq]
I hope I don't live to be 100, but if I do, I still won't understand how people can think that requiring one's dog to do what one asks equals not loving them. Or how they can rationalize requiring the dogs to sleep in the garage, and believe they are "kinder" than people who expect their dogs to do what they ask. Is that creative thinking or something?
Mustang Sally

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Janet B:

[nq:1]Or how they can rationalize requiring the dogs to sleep in the garage, and believe they are "kinder" than people who expect their dogs to do what they ask. Is that creative thinking or something? Mustang Sally[/nq]
Creative or just plain old warped.

Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

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shelly:

[nq:1]Creative or just plain old warped.[/nq]
dare i suggest that maintaining such a mindset requires the wearing of a certain sort of blinders?

shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com /

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sighthounds & siberians:

[nq:2]Creative or just plain old warped.[/nq]
[nq:1]dare i suggest that maintaining such a mindset requires the wearing of a certain sort of blinders?[/nq]
I think that's it. You almost have to admire it - it can't be easy to maintain such an illogical and contradictory belief system.

Mustang Sally

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shelly:

[nq:1]I think that's it. You almost have to admire it - it can't be easy to maintain such an illogical and contradictory belief system.[/nq]
i admire the effort and dedication it takes to maintain such a POV, but i can't help but think that they could be better utilized elsewise.

shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com /

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Jack \The Unpalatable Barbarian\ Morrison:

[nq:2]Trusting your dogs and trusting your dogs together are two different things.[/nq]
[nq:1]Jack, If I cant trust them together then I cant trust them, its not two different things at all.[/nq]
Oh please. Until your dogs are TRAINED, you can't trust them at all, and especially when they're together.
[nq:2]Some people are like that, too. For example, I have a hunch that you and I wouldn't get along very well.[/nq]
[nq:1]I dare say thats true. You like to wield power whereas I dont need that. You can hold two opposing views and assert that both are correct- I need rationality.[/nq]
I like to supply LEADERSHIP when it's called for. And with dogs, it's always called for.
Yes, this is true whether you want to believe it or not.
[nq:2]Why not? That's what many dogs do. It's who they are, in fact.[/nq]
[nq:1]I disagree with that position.[/nq]
Do you also "disagree" with the Laws of Gravity?

[nq:1]Its because you hold that view-[/nq]
I hold that view because I know a lot about dogs, and about their ancestor, the wolf.
If you want to live in your own little La La Land, that's okay with me, too, but it won't change the Laws of Gravity, or the fact that many dogs were bred to chase and kill animals.
Like terminators from the future, "it's what they do."
[nq:1]a negative view IMO,[/nq]
Actually, it's a very positive view, because it's a rational view and it's based on science, rather than emotion.
I never argue with Mother Nature.
[nq:1]that you believe I must be a ditz[/nq]
Yes, I do believe that you're a ditz, but again, it's because you insist upon acting ditzy.
So, I assume you actually want people to think that you're a ditz, right?
[nq:1]to not want to make my dogs submit to me- for actually wanting to use positive, constructive methods.[/nq]
I use "positive constructive" methods in which to OBEDIENCE TRAIN my dogs.
Obedience = submission.
When my wife asks me to take the garbage out, I obey her. I submit to her (and gladly!), because I know that if I don't, there will be unwanted "consequences."
And when I ask her to cook my favorite dish, she obeys me and does so. Because she knows there will be unwanted "consequences" if she doesn't.
[nq:2]Do your children submit to you?[/nq]
[nq:1]No. They do not SUBMIT to me![/nq]
Then you're a real bozo.
And a bozo, in case you were wondering, is a ditz dressed up like a clown.
[nq:1]I am neither a neanderthal or a bully.[/nq]
Neither am I. But *my* children obey their parents (that is, you'll never see one of them on the "Cops" TV show). And they obey their teachers. And they obey the cop on the corner. And they obey their bosses.
Because they all prefer good things to happen to them rather than bad things.
[nq:1]They each have an intellect and have been raised to use it.[/nq]
Good point! Which is why my children know that if they obey their parents, the cop on the corner, their teachers, their bosses, etc. good things will happen to them.
And when they don't obey, bad things, costly things, usually happen to them.
Because anyone with an ounce of sense (most dogs pick up on this concept faster than many humans!) prefers good things over bad.
[nq:1]What a useless comparison- my kids know right from wrong[/nq]
No child is born with the ability to know right from wrong. Children need to be TAUGHT that difference.
By their parents, by their teachers, by the cop on the corner, by their bosses, by their priest, rabbi, etc.
And by there being consequences for their actions.

It's what separates the civilized from the barbarian.
[nq:1]and can use their intellect to make choices and weigh up the consequences of those choices. Pretty sure my dogs are not THAT evolved.[/nq]
I'm glad you used that word "consequences"!
That's what OBEDIENCE TRAINING is all about.
Showing dogs how to weigh the consequences of their own actions.

Just like we teach out children to do.
It's pretty easy to do actually, provided we're not still flower children caught in a time warp.
[nq:1]I'll bet that both your wife and children have to submit to your will (assuming you have either)[/nq]
My wife is my partner. We share the responsibility of raising our children. We have many children, and they all must "submit" to us, and "obey" us, if they want all the good things in life, like clothes, food, a place to sleep, health care, an education, etc.

Yes, I make them sign a contract as soon as they can write.
[nq:2]Do they submit to their teachers?[/nq]
[nq:1]Just because teachers tend to use intimidation to control pupils doesnt make it right. Just because my kids are used to experiencing bullying doesnt mean its okay for me to do it too.[/nq]
But you didn't answer my question.
Do your kids submit to their teachers?
Do they submit to the cop on the corner?
A simple yes or no will suffice.
[nq:2]Then why in the hell shouldn't your own freakin' DOGS ... free health care, and tons and tons of individual attention?[/nq]
[nq:1]Because submission is a NEGATIVE experience. Why do you believe so strongly that a dog needs to be submissive to be obedient??[/nq]
Are you kidding?
How is it possible in your Bizarro World to be obedient without being submissive??
Please explain how that's possible right here >

Take as much space as you need!
[nq:2]Who are you anyway? Naomi Wolf?[/nq]
[nq:1]I dont know who that is. Is it a real question or are you being smart?[/nq]
It's a real question.
You sound like a fruitcake, so I just assumed...
[nq:2]And stop sounding like a '60s flowerchild.[/nq]
[nq:1]Your perception of me speaks volumes about you. I certainly will not change my position to better suit your tastes.[/nq]
I couldn't care less if you ever change your position. I know a cinder block when I see one.
But you said you wanted some help, so I gave it to you.

And maybe my advice will help someone else...
...who's not a fruitcake.
[nq:2]It makes you sound like you've lost a few screws.[/nq]
[nq:1]Hey, if wanting my dogs to be obedient without having them afraid of me[/nq]
Are you familiar with the term "straw man"?
If not, look it up.
Because you're building them faster than they're building new condos down in Boca Raton.
[nq:1]makes you think I'm a bit of a crackpot, I'd say its because you're probably a confirmed power tripper. I'm not a control freak.[/nq]
Yes, I think you're a crackpot. And I feel very sorry for your dogs.
[nq:1]I dont accept that the ends justify the means. EVER. I dont just want a particular result, its important to me HOW its achieved, thats why I asked only for positive, gentle techniques.[/nq]
Everything I recommended to you can be accomplished using "positive, gentle techniques."
Unless you're a fruitcake.

Jack "The Unpalatable Barbarian" Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to send me e-mail
Are women really necessary? Emotion: big smile

http://techcentralstation.com/112705A.html
Beware! This man may be teaching your children:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20325

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RE: Looking for constructive advice page 3

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