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culprit:

[nq:1]I had a feeling that he might not ever have been to your house. As it sounds like you know, ... dogs ever visited your home (either place you've lived with your current two)? If so, how did your dogs react?[/nq]
we've had a couple of dogs over, and yes, they played more easily when one on one with my dogs, and there was more tension when all three were together. a huge part of this is that Manu is very protective and territorial. however, he accepts other dogs into his "pack" quite easily, so i don't know how long this would be a problem.
when we were in obedience class with him, we had a play date for all the dogs in all of the trainer's classes. it was held in her horse arena, on a sunday afternoon. she does this every few months, and it's great fun for the dogs to romp and play. she knew that Manu could be protective, so i was "assigned" to him with a squirt bottle. i observed that he played well with all the dogs from his class, but when a dog from another class tried to jump in, he'd turn around and growl at them. apparently he had accepted the dogs from class as his "pack", and was keeping out strangers.

i guess this is the reason i don't see it being a huge problem to add to the pack. Lola is in charge, and she doesn't care as long as she gets treated like the diva she is. Manu is the protector, but once he accepts that the strange dog is friendly, he's ok too.
the main problem i worry about is if Wiley really pisses off Lola, Manu will come to the rescue. in full pit bull fight mode.
fortunately, it's rowdy puppies don't seem to *** Lola off. i'm sure there will be snarking over toys and such, but we'll just go back to doling out toys when the dogs are closely supervised, until we see how things go.

in the mean time, i'm working with my brother and sister-in-law to see if there's anything i can do to help them keep Wiley. i'm going to pay for an obedience class for him, buy them a crate big enough for him so he can stay indoors, etc. the kids love him, and he really loves them. i think he should stay in his home if possible.
-kelly

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Sionnach:

[nq:1]Sarah says her dogs fight once or twice a year, and she can easily break it up.[/nq]
To be more precise: my two strong-willed bitches, one a terrier, the other a very bossy and temperamental herding dog, have had a total of four or five squabbles - no actual harm attempted - in 3.5 years. All but one of them happened within a fairly short period of time, when Rocsi was around a year old.
[nq:1]I'm sure they are well aware that fighting is "not allowed," and that's why her interference immediately stops it.[/nq]
Sort of. Since 99.9% of the time it never occurs to them to fight at all, it's not exactly something that I have lay down a rule about it being "not allowed" in the first place.
[nq:1]But being emotional creatures with free will, even in the most disciplined homes dogs will sometimes break the rules.[/nq]
I wouldn't even say it's a matter of "breaking the rules", since as I said it's Not An Issue for the most part. You're right on the money about the emotional part of it, though, since it's only happened when one or the other has basically gotten her feelings hurt.
All but one of the episodes occurred about 2.5 years ago, at the time when Rocsi got serious about fetch games; they were triggered because Morag tried to initiate roughhouse play when Rocsi was Seriously Working. Rocsi would tell Mw to Back Off, I'm WORKING Here, Dammit! and Mw would take offense because she was Only Playing, Dammit!.
After a few occurrences, Morag finally realized that she has to leave Rocsi alone when she's retriving - IOW, they worked it out. Since then, it's only happened one other time, when they were both overtired and cranky; Rocsi was washing Morag's face and ears (which she does all the time), Mw crabbed at her (usually, she just mutters under her breath when she wants Rocsi to stop), and Rocsi got offended.

And as I said, all I've ever had to do is grab one dog with each hand and say "Knock It Off!", whereupon they stop, look embarrassed, and go back to normal behavior.

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Sionnach:

[nq:1]I don't think it's all about being tough. It's consistency, it's structure, it's basics. Don't get me wrong, I can be very tough, but I don't find that's needed very frequently.[/nq]
Exactly.

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Sionnach:

[nq:1]Strong leadership is an amazing thing. I'm sure that Sarah is a strong leader, but she also has some other family dynamics which >mayaffect that.[/nq]
Not particularly, if you're referring to human family dynamics. The dynamic in question is, pure and simple, of two strong-willed bitches who are best buddies and once in a very great while have had misunderstandings.

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Sionnach:

[nq:1]years ago, at the dog park, I was always amazed at the people who had no clue a fight was about to break out, while I had already called my dog to my side.[/nq]
Yep. I am CONSTANLY amazed at how many people can't see that - especially when it's their own dogs involved!!

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Sionnach:

[nq:1]he accepts other dogs into his "pack" quite easily, so i don't know how long this would be a problem.[/nq]
That would definitely be a plus.
[nq:1]the main problem i worry about is if Wiley really pisses off Lola, Manuwill come to the rescue. in full pit bull fight mode.[/nq]
That's one of the things that would concern me, and it's one of the issues that makes three dogs a pack in a way that two dogs aren't - you can get teaming up like that.
My guys do it in play, and the pairings shift around... Brenin and Rocsi will chase Morag - with Mw initiating the chase- then hold her "at bay" and "work" her (e.g. make lots of noise, dart in and out at her); at other times, Rocsi becomes the "prey", and the larger two jump all around her. Interestingly, although all three will work prey together, and the girls often team up hunting chipmunks and other vermin, the three of them never "gang up" on other dogs, nor do the girls ever "gang up" on Brenin.

However, it IS a common dynamic with more aggressive dogs for one of them to decide to "help" the other.
[nq:1]in the mean time, i'm working with my brother and sister-in-law to see if there's anything i can do to help them keep Wiley.[/nq]
Good.
[nq:1]i think he should stay in his home if possible.[/nq]
That would definitely be the best outcome for everyone - hope they can manage it!

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Sionnach:

[nq:1]To be more precise: my two strong-willed bitches, one a terrier, the other a very bossy and temperamental herding dog, ... years. All but one of them happened within a fairly short period of time, when Rocsi wasaround a year old.[/nq]
Forgot to mention that all but one of them did not occur in my home, but during play at the park or at the dog beach.

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Paula:

[nq:1]I don't know, I guess I just worry when I hear this leadership talk, because it makes me think I need to change who I am rather than simply how I act? Does this make sense to anyone?[/nq]That makes sense to me. I feel the same way. I hate fighting and am not a big control person with my kids or my dogs. But the beauty of being a good leader is that you can be your pacifist self more often that way. You make it clear that fighting is not allowed, and they don't fight. It's so much easier than being Ms Hard on a regular basis. My dogs are the bosses of themselves in the little things of daily life.

I don't have a really controlling nature. But I have made my stand on the big things so that I don't have to micromanage nor do I have to go psycho. You are the kind of person who doesn't want dogs fighting, so you don't have to change who you are. You just need to make sure your dogs get that message when it counts and as if it counts and you won't have to keep giving it to them every five minutes.

Paula
"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse ***. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and riffle their pockets for new vocabulary." - James Nicoll (on r.a.s.f.w., 5/15/90)

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Paula:

[nq:2]I don't have fights. It's not allowed.[/nq]
[nq:1]Yup. I've never had a fight here, no matter the structure of the "pack" - whether it's my own dogs ... it went (and as far as I would have allowed it to go if they hadn't come to an agreement).[/nq]
Diva isn't allowed any real growling because that has led to too much trouble in her checkered past. She has developed this little under her breath noise that I have never heard from any other dog that is kind of like growling but not. It's like she's muttering under her breath or something. I can just imagine the muttering that would be going on if she was inflicted with a pushy young GR in her oh so sacred personal space.

Paula
"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse ***. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and riffle their pockets for new vocabulary." - James Nicoll (on r.a.s.f.w., 5/15/90)

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RE: My brother's dog page 10

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