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Ivor Jones:

(snip)
[nq:1]I understand that this is a very difficult situation, with no easy answers. However, I find myself feeling very negative ... I cannot help my feeling that no-kill shelters are better options, either. Just my rambling thoughts on the matter. Ginger-lyn[/nq]
You and your friends are to be commended on your efforts, if even one cat survives as a result, it's been worth it.
Take a look at www.cats.org.uk to see how at least one organisation here in the UK works.
Ivor

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Wendy:

[nq:2]Your comment was certainly a "cheap shot" and an insult. ... different topic and probably not even appropriate for this group.[/nq]
[nq:1]At the risk of being flamed, I am going to jump in here. I understand that this is a very ... I cannot help my feeling that no-kill shelters are better options, either. Just my rambling thoughts on the matter. Ginger-lyn[/nq]
No kill shelters can be successful because they can refuse to take more cats when they are full. The public shelters cannot do that. It's like the difference between public and private schools. The private schools don't have to put up with the disruptive students or the under-achievers. So of course they are going to appear to be more successful.

W

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Ron Herfurth:

[nq:2]If you don't want to kill them and there's no ... food rather than having to kill their own. ron herfurth[/nq]
[nq:1]That works only if the released animals are then given food and shelter for the rest of their natural lives, which is what TAR is supposed to be about. Sharon Talbert Campus Cats[/nq]
That's what we do around here. I'm currently helping feed in 3 different locations. I sort of assumed I'd keep feeding as long as fluffy little ones kept showing up to eat.
ron

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Fred:

[nq:1]At the risk of being flamed, I am going to jump in here.[/nq]

[nq:1]I wish I had a solution. I really do. But I cannot help my feeling that no-kill shelters are better options, either. Just my rambling thoughts on the matter.[/nq]
Well said Ginger-lyn. Don't worry about getting flamed. It's probably a troll and they typically have no emotional committment to whatever point of view they express. They just want to get an arguement. I think we can ignore this one now.
I know two people who volunteer at the local no-kill shelter and they really have the best interests of the cats in mind. I really doubt that there are many where they take cats to another shelter to be killed. It's a litle absurd, (not that it might not have happened somewhere,... sometime). Usually when a no-kill shelter is full they just start canvassing their call list and if that doesn't work they have to refuse to accept new cats. That may result in some getting killed, but it also encourages people to find other viable alternatives.
In future, (i.e. after this post) I'm only going to respond to this topic on which is the group I read. If you want to see my comments, if any, you'll have to go there.

Fred
(Remove FF from my email address to reply if by email). "Libertarianism is to economics as
'Trial by combat' is to justice."

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Sharon Talbert:

I know you do, Ron. Just keeping the debate going.

Sharon
Campus Cats

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Sharon Talbert:

[nq:1]I would imagine both "kill" and "no-kill" are doing the best with the resources they have. I have no problem with either as long as they are up front about what their policy is.[/nq]
I have a problem with it, because no-one is "up-front" about the reality of their policy, especially the so-called "no-kill" shelters. What I have a big problem with is the (possibly deliberately) misleading term, "no-kill." Could as easily be "no-take." But that wouldn't get the donations... I've never liked the "no-kill" label and I really hate it when conventional shelters are called "kill" shelters. That is as unfair as "no-kill" is misleading.
[nq:1]I foster for a rescue group. They don't have a shelter at this time. They are lucky that a local ... so many cats. So yes they turn away cats when there just plain and simple isn't anywhere to put them.[/nq]
Which is the point of this debate. How can a shelter justify calling itself "no-kill" just because it has the option of turning away animals it doesn't want to deal with or hasn't room for?
[nq:1]The problem won't be solved until people get off their lazy butts and take their pets to get them neutered. ... bucks you can get your animal neutered - for less than it costs for the yearly visit to the vet.[/nq]
You are absolutely right. But until that day, it is still neither fair nor accurate for any shelter to call itself a "no-kill" facility. I really feel that this designation is not only self-serving, it has contributed to the deliquency of lazy pet owners, who proudly report they do their best to find a "no-kill" shelter for their discarded pets.

I even had a woman call me once and say she was going to "donate" her unwanted cat to Campus Cats...
Sharon Talbert
Campus Cats

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Kalyahna:

[nq:1]I am glad to see this debate. I very much hope "kill shelter" will be dropped from the general vocabulary. ... rather like blaming garbage collectors for the mess. Who's doing the throwing away here? Sharon Talbert Friends of Campus Cats[/nq]
I think that's the best analogy I've ever heard.

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Sunflower:

[nq:2]While doing some research on the issue of no-kill vs ... I think that makes it very much more valuable. http://www.jeevashram.org/nokill.html[/nq]
[nq:1]The article kinds just says what you have said in previous posts. Euthanasia is a nice sounding word for killing. Its killing, and the public should be told and informed of what kill/ non kill whatever shelters will do to these animals.[/nq]The public doesn't care. Many times I've been at the shelter when someone "has to get rid of" an animal. When you explain that this is NOT a no kill facility, and that their animal might possibly be put to death by strangers, and that they are welcome to try to locate one for their animal, they surrender the animal anyway. Once the decision is made, there's only a 5% chance of changing their mind. I've even chastised folks with elderly animals who surrendered them to do the responsible thing and have the animal euthanized themselves rather than making the last moments of a creature that they supposedly loved at one time be reduced to being comforted from a stranger.

They lie to themselves that their animal is truly special and won't meet that fate and then run like hell the other way. What's sad, is that yes, their animal is truly special and the assholes don't care enough to work through the health or behavior issue, or find housing that allows pets.
The workers might not like to do what
[nq:1]they have to do, but the truth should be out there.[/nq]
Actually, I both hate and love euthanasia. I hate the fact that so many animals exist that some are deemed surplus property to be disposed of. But, I'm at least grateful that euthanasia does exist verses having animals exist long term in shelter environments. Shelter environments are stressful and can lead to animal psychosis, "stir crazy animals". Some animals can take it longer than others. It truly is a kindness to an animal to release it from it's too small cage in a too crowded shelter. If a good home, and I do mean a good home, cannot be found, then I'd rather them be put to sleep with me stroking their fur and crying. At least someone cares enough to cry for them.
In bold print. for
[nq:1]us, the regular public who does not know behind the door things can't just sit here and give you an ... don't take personal responsibility for thier decisions and actions. And the Goverment has to dictate to us on our morals.[/nq]
Most of "the public" doesn't care about homeless animals. They don't care about spaying and neutering their animals, so they produce more. They don't care about finding responsible sources for the pets they do bring into their homes. Hell, in my state, we don't even have an enforceable misdemeanor cruelty law on the books, much less a felony one! With the popularity of Animal Cops and other shows of a similar vein, if a state can't even get a simple animal cruelty law on the books, what do you think "the public" cares about killing animals in shelters. They don't. Only a few "crazy cat ladies" in communities across the land care enough to do the work to try to make a difference in the long run.

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Kalyahna:

[nq:1]I understand that this is a very difficult situation, with no easy answers. However, I find myself feeling very negative ... 2.1 million dollar building, but can't afford to treat ear mites? I took the cat home and still have him.[/nq]
How do you know about their choices and method of euthanasia? Honestly, unless you're speaking to the people that actually make the choices and perform the euthanasia, you know less than you think. If they're telling you they'd euthanize a cat for ear mites... well, that's just shitty of them.
[nq:1]A dear friend of mine is the President of the Board of a shelter that used to be kill, but ... is a successful shelter by all accounts, from what I can tell. If they can go no-kill, why can't others?[/nq]
Because a fast, virtually painless death is better than starving or suffering for years from disease or being hit by a car or killed or maimed and left to die by roving predators. You need to be aware of what euthanizing shelters are up against. We have had days where all fifteen cages in admitting are full - every other cage in the building is also full. And we have six to ten carriers on the floor. We're open admission. We're the county facility as well. We do not have the option of saying "no" to people. The best we can do is ask them to make an appointment and explain that this time of year, taking in their cat right now means another cat WILL be put down. Some of them don't care.
Our isolation (sick cats only) room has 25 cages. The seven large cages currently house twenty cats. Most of them STRAY litters of kittens. There were 43 cats in there this morning. It takes us four hours every morning to do all the medicating - another three or so at night.

We opened at noon today with one cage open in admitting. By the time I left a little after two, there were no empty cages, and there were five carriers on the floor. They don't start REALLY rolling in until 5 or so. Most days, we're scheduled from 10-7:30. My coworkers were there until 10:30 last night, busting their asses to move cats and find cages.
[nq:1]And yes, I know, this leaves the problem of lack of space and what to do about it. They have ... to take in "just one more". This may not be ideal, but in their small town, it works fairly well.[/nq]
I'm a foster parent. So are the vast majority of my coworkers. I have SIXTEEN kittens in my apartment right now. Three full litters. Ten of them are sick, half of those are feral. I'm doing more than my part.
[nq:1]Unfortunately, I think the only long-term solution is to convince virtually everyone to spay and neuter, and I am sure everyone here knows how difficult that is.[/nq]
We had a very successful Spay Day marathon a few months ago. Over 100 spays and neuters. We just had another one, and we're doing another at the end of this month, with the same goal. We focus on low-income areas, SNAP (spay/neuter assistance program) participants, sometimes other shelters that don't have a staff vet. And the cats and kittens (and dogs, this year, too) just keep coming in.

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RE: No-kill vs. non no-kill shelters page 5

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