[nq:1]to anyone,[/nq] [nq:2]WOW... I am, [nq:1]They are here. Once again,, [nq:1]Oh thanks

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Kay:

[nq:1]to anyone,[/nq]
[nq:2]WOW... I am replying to a post. and killing is ... post and not be afraid to ask for help. Kay[/nq]
[nq:1]Check at http://www.petfinder.org / and see if there is a rescue group in your area. Look for a group that does ... get them their shots. At least that way you can start making a dent in the uncontrolled reproduction. W W[/nq]Oh thanks for that link! How this started, was kittens were born in my garage. Instead of coming to a newsgroups. My husband and I fed the mother and kittens. We thought that when the kittens were older we would bring them in to a shelter to be adopted. We bought heaters and electric blankets for outside pets for the mother and kittens. The neighbors across the alley from me, trapped all but one kitten not knowing they were from my garage, All the kittens that were trapped by this neighbor were not brought to a shelter because everyone on that block took in a kitten.

In the meantime I was trying to catch the momma cat because I wanted to provide a home for her, she has a half tail and looks roughed up and was afriad everyone wanted a kitten but not her. I kept feeding her and trying to get near her, I still am.
Other neighbors saw me feeding her and they blame me for the other cats. They demanded I stop. What I do now, is in the morning I sneak to the garage with food and leave the door open abit so momma cat gets in and eats. Last week we almost got her, but she climbed up the rafters and found a way out of the garage.
Meanwhile the lady accross the streat is feeding all of them in her yerd and people are mad Animal welfare/control was called by my nextdoor neighbor, she told me that if I call they will be put up for adoption, and then everyone on my block started to call and they have not shown up.
We found another kitten and kept her then another and I wanted my husband to drop her off to be adopted. I read a post here about kittens being killed. So I I asked my husband to bring her back, he said he was never going to bring her in. He was going to ask to keep her. So having multiable cats is great. This last kitten had to be bottle fed and thanks to the internet I learned. But the neighbors here are getting madder and madder. Thus the meeting and I wanted to propose something. Links to places, Education and facts about our system. I'm still new and I don't have alot of places to tell them about. Tonights the meeting so any helpful links or suggestions would be brought up tonight. i would be very thankful.
Even though that guy yelled at me and called me names the litter box is a great idea.
I have never been committed to any animal groups or organizations so I'm not sure where to begin. But I have the time and am willing to try my best.

My husaband interjected just now, he wanted to know if a feral cat has to have series of shots, like the kittens or is it just one booster? And if we do a trap, s/n and shots and release, are the shelters against that? Do they want a promise that we are going to keep them? We are not sure how that works?
Kay

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Ginger-lyn Summer:

[nq:1]They are here. Once again, see www.cats.org.uk for some ideas. Ivor[/nq]
Apologies, Ivor I don't mean to be ignoring you. My computer is very old, and I have trouble accessing websites on the one I normally use. I will check out the link. There is a poster on another group I am on who has talked quite a bit about CPL, and the wonderful work they do, so I am aware of that :-)
Thanks again for the link.
Ginger-lyn

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Wendy:

[nq:1]Oh thanks for that link! How this started, was kittens were born in my garage. Instead of coming to a ... Do they want a promise that we are going to keep them? We are not sure how that works? Kay[/nq]
If the cat is ferile and there is someone who will commit to feed and care for them they will (at least around here) release the cat back where it came from. If a cat seems like it could be adoptable and they have room for it, they could keep it, get it neutered and shots etc. and then try to home it.

We just trapped a cat recently who had a litter of 7 that I fostered. Originally they thought she's be released but as it turns out she is coming around and they are going to try to home her. Sometimes the cats have been dumped or lost and have been used to people in the past. They seem to just need to rebuild trust and then they can be adopted. Not always though.

If a rescue group agrees to work with you they might be able to lend you a live trap. The theory with them is you put the food in the trap, kitty goes in to eat and the trap closes behind kitty - viola you have a trapped cat who then can go to be neutered etc. That's the plan at least - some cats are more trap smart than others.
Good luck.

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Kay:

[nq:1]If the cat is ferile and there is someone who will commit to feed and care for them they will ... to be neutered etc. That's the plan at least - some cats are more trap smart than others. Good luck.[/nq]
Thanks so much for the tip. I was unaware of a trap like that for a cat. Makes sense. We were trying to trap them in the garage, how they got in was during an addition that was being added. We stopped construction when we found out there were kittens. We wanted the mother cat to come back and nurse them. We thought If we went ahead she would leave them. I guess thats why she chose our garage, the doors were not put on yet.

The meeting didn't go so well. A few people yelled at the lady across the street and at me. One man said I was a animal wacko! The ones that looked like they might care kept quiet, like not wanting to get involved and get yelled at to. I am upset right now. Can't think straight being yelled at like that shocked me. I didn't realize the anger in some people against animals. They seem to think its someone elses problem. I guess to those out there who have been around the block might have been through this?
The neighbor across the street is coming over tommrow to talk about what we can do.
Kay

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Fan:

I, for one, appreciate your thinking about this problem and trying to come up with a solution. My goal in challenging the anti-euthanasia people is to either get them to admit that euthanasia is a reality of the current situation or to come up with a solution to how euthanasia can be eliminated.
The shelter that I am associated with is in a city of about 350,000 or so people in the metro area. This is plus or minus around 50,000 depending on what areas are considered metro. As such it is considered a small to medium city in the US.
[nq:2]My husband and I were discussing this thread last night, ... vet techs, and all the other things any shelter needs.[/nq]
We are the largest shelter in the metro area, by a very large margin. That would qualify us as The Hub in your senerio. There are no other shelters who are even a tenth our size, so we are the logical choice to be The Hub. Realistically, even the next smaller shelter is not capable of growing to the size that could support the Hub functions.

We are currently performing all the above functions and have been doing so for many years.
One thing that you did not mention is large sums of money. This translates to over a million US dollars a year. That is assuming a huge amount of donations of food, medications, volunteer labor, etc..

Another important function that we perform is public education on spay/neuter and it's importance. We also have several outreach programs to get this, and other important messages across.

There is also the lobying effort. It is a constant struggle to get the legislature to vote pro-animal. We recently had a huge fight with a committee leader who tried his best to stop a pro-animal bill because he wanted another, unrelated, bill passed. He held the animal one for ransom. That is totally dishonest, but it is politics.

One more important function is investigation and prevention of animal crualty. Unlike you see in the "Animal Cops" program, most places don't have anyone trained in this area of law. Our staff is kept busy with cases of starvation and other mistreatment. Again, this takes money away from the adopable animals, but it is a necessary function. None of the no-kills do this, we have to.
We have tens of thousands of dollars invested into a crematory for animals. That function is needed for animals that died on the roads, died at their owner's homes, vet clinics, and other shelters. It is a lot of work, but it is a needed service.
We also offer pet behaviorial counciling for problem cases. We try to fix the problem so the owner won't give up a cat that pees outside the litterbox, for example. That is important too, and requires time and money to support.
There are other things that most people don't think about, but are important to the overall effort to help the animals. They all have a common thread, time and money. If there was an infinate amount of both, there would be no euthanasia for space reasons. The reality is that there is never enough.
[nq:2]Then each no-kill shelter would be affiliated with "The Hub". ... costs, and allow them to focus more on pure adoptions.[/nq]
The people at the no-kill shelters hate us. Your first inclination would be to say "of course they do, you do euthanasia." In fact, they all hate each other too. There is a tremendous competition between all the shelters. Each has their own policies and philosophies. They are all adament that the others are wrong and they are right.

It would take an act of God, quite literally, to change this.
[nq:2]If one shelter affiliate was full when The Hub got ... another affiliate and, hopefully, find one that did have room.[/nq]
Even though no one gets along, there is enough cooperation, above the table, or below it, that this happens. The reality is that the no-kills fill up faster than we do because they adopt at a much slower rate. It is extremely rare for one of them to have an opening when we are full. Actually, we receive animals from them on occasion.

One reason for this is that they want to be known as "no-kill" so they don't directly euthanise. Instead, they ship the animals to us to do it. Cute, huh. I couldn't believe it when I first heard of it. It is one of the dirty little secrets of this business.
[nq:2]If all the affiliate shelters are full, then a volunteer network of fosterers kicks in, so it's a three-tiered approach.[/nq]
Yes, we all have that also. It is almost always full of special needs animals. This ranges from medical issues, including new borns, to socialization problems. We have an extrememly strong system and have made some rather inovative approaches that no other shelter in the state, or surrounding states have ever tried.
One thing that you did not mention is a network of breed specific rescues. That is also a help to us because they take specific breeds. Each one is one less animal that we have to take care of. This opens space for one more animal that doesn't have a breed specific rescue.
[nq:2]Add to that, a volunteer network dedicated solely to maintaining feral colonies and doing TNR.[/nq]
We have something like that, but it is not affiliated with any shelter. We support them in spirit, but cannot afford to send hardly any money to them. We are strongly in favor of this, but the funds are not there.
[nq:2]Now, in addition to normal spay/neuter publicity, The Hub could ... overcrowding that all shelters see at those times of year.[/nq]
We bust our buns on adoptions 365 days a year. There is no more that we can do. We take advantage of every free media opening and we pay as much as we can appropriately budget for fee based media coverage. We have volunteers who specialize in this and they work their buns off. I know that for a fact because I am involved in it. In fact I have trained some of them in this work.
I have also been sucessful in getting new no-cost advertising oppertunities from local businesses. There is a limited market for free advertising and we have tapped it out.
Again, the issue is money. If we had another few thousand a year, we could do more. Of course that would mean less medical treatment for the animals, or other cuts the we are unwilling to make in good concience.
[nq:2]I think there were more details, but that's the gist ... up with a model, it could translate to larger cities.[/nq]
Why do you think this is only for no-kills? I see no reason that the principals are different. The only reason that I can think of is if the regular shelters are doing euthanasia because they want to do it. Since that is not the case at most private shelters, what difference is there. I specify private because public shelters have a whole different set of rules dictated by their government and they have less flexibility than we have.
Now we are back to the fact that no one has come up with a viable alternative that will work in the forseeable future. We are already doing what you suggested, and it is a great model, but it is not enough.
I wish that we could be even closer to your model, it is a good one, but human egos are in play here. Animal activists tend to be very inflexible in their belief that their way is the only correct way and everyone else is wrong, or at least "not as right." They are fighting tooth and nail for what they believe in and that often leads to such inflexibility.

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Wendy:

[nq:2]If the cat is ferile and there is someone who ... - some catsare more trap smart than others. Good luck.[/nq]
[nq:1]Thanks so much for the tip. I was unaware of a trap like that for a cat. Makes sense. We ... been through this? The neighbor across the street is coming over tommrow to talk about what we can do. Kay[/nq]
Yea well, the someone else's problem mentality is how this problem started to begin with.

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Kay:

[nq:1]care came it, it. coming been just a goes cat are[/nq]
[nq:2]Thanks so much for the tip. I was unaware of ... over tommrow to talk about what we can do. Kay[/nq]
[nq:1]Yea well, the someone else's problem mentality is how this problem started to begin with.[/nq]
I can now see why there are alot of frustration. I don't plan on backing down. Its nice that if I have question I cannot find I can post here. My husband wants to buy the trap and to start one cat at a time. We have alot of reading to do, thank goodness for the internet!

Kay

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Sunflower:

"Try Alley Cat Allies for information about trapping, neutering, and releasing feral cats. This only works if you have someone willing to help maintain feeding and caring for the colony. http://www.alleycat.org /

Try www.spayusa.org/ to search for a low cost veterinarian in your area who may be able to assist with spaying and neutering the ferals. Don't forget to contact local shelters and rescue organizations in your immediate area who may already have funding set up in place to deal with the problem and may can help you also.
Look at
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=90218 for a trap. If you buy over $50 from them, shipping is free. Two traps are better than one. Maybe you and the lady across the street can buy one each and that way you'd be twice as effective about trapping the strays.
I'd also suggest calling Animal Control in your area once you come to agreement about a plan, and informing them that you are going to be managing the situation and that if they do respond to complaints and manage to trap any animals themselves, that you will process them and agree to maintain their care. Since they haven't responded so far, it's a stretch to think they'll even be interested, but you never know the assholery of some of the more alcoholic brothers in law to the mayor that usually inhabit AC jobs in redneck America.

Our group has helped the local owner of a trailer park manage the feral colony that exists there, which operated for years with lots of complaints, but as soon as we began to donate food and arrange for slots in the surgery schedule to be open for them to bring one or two a week, the ACO's started doing their own trapping and immediately euthanizing. We had to go to the Mayor to get it stopped, and only by threatening to go to the newespaper was that accomplished.

So, YMMV when dealing with ACOs.

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frlpwr:

(snip)
[nq:1]WOW... I am replying to a post. and killing is nowhere in my vocab.[/nq]
You said you "try and trap" neighborhood ferals. Then you listed your grievances against them. Next, you implied the 'problem' was the result of one kind-hearted woman who feeds stray cats and went on to suggest that spaying and neutering these neighborhood strays was somehow her responsibility and her's alone.
You wrote that you had called "the animal welfare" which I correctly assumed was your local animal control to "do something" about the "awful" situation. When you put "feral cats" together in the same sentence as "animal control", you don't have to type the word "kill", lady, it's smeared all over the screen.
[nq:1]You seem very hostile.[/nq]
Not "seem", am hostile to anyone who is a threat to the life and liberty of feral cats.
[nq:1]I asked for advice not to be flamed.[/nq]
You weren't asking advice on how to get feral cats s/n, how to manage their feeding, how to keep them safe in what you described as a dangerous environment. All you did was *** about squashed garden plants, poop in your yard, disease transmission to your housecats and the inaction of "the animal welfare" who you undoubtedly want and expect to rush over to your neighborhood and remove the cats who so offend you.
I see nothing in your post that indicates sympathy, kindness or good will to the unfortunate cats. It's all about you and yours.
[nq:1]Or called a cat killer. I had no knowlage of animal welfeare killing cats, until a recent post.[/nq]
You think you should get a pass because you've chosen to live in a fairytale world where every animal, no matter how unsocialied, that is impounded finds some happy home with mom, pop and the kids? You are an adult. You should know better. Such ignorant naivete' means death for feral cats.
[nq:1]And we were if you were reading this thread, trying to find and alturnative ideas.[/nq]
In most cases, adult feral cats have two options: T/N/R into a monitored colony or death by lethal injection. I would think a simple google search of 'feral cats' would reveal this.
[nq:1]the OP cross posted and I replied, I posted my neighborhoods state so that ideas of what to do, and ... he was going to bring the kitten home anyways. I read the post to him and we kept the kitten,[/nq]
That's fine, but what are you going to do for the adults? Harvesting the occasional kitten from a feral cat colony does nothing for the welfare of this group of cats. There will be more kittens in the fall, more again in the spring, many more next fall and on and on.
[nq:1]we have a 2 year old that was found in a parking lot and another kitten besides this one.[/nq]
That should give you a hint about what is needed for this colony of cats...some human to step in and stop the breeding .
[nq:1]I thought I was helping by trying to trap them and take then to the shelter. then I read that post. I was not aware that things that happen.[/nq]
You know now, so why the hell are you still bitching about "the animal welfare" failing to "do something" about your neighborhood ferals?
[nq:1]Before I knew this I have not been sucessful at trapping any.[/nq]
That's a lucky break for the cats!
[nq:1]So Don't say I'm a killer,[/nq]
All it takes is a moment of thought to realize that shelters cannot adopt out cats that can't be touched. What did you think would happen to these ferals at your local shelter? Did you bother to think about it all? Or were you too keen on the removal of the cats to care?
[nq:1]Now that I know I posted my situtation and asked on what to do,[/nq]
In the post to which I replied, the only advice solicted regarded going to the media with your horror story of squashed plants, wayward *** and threats to air travel safety (?).
[nq:1]Yelling and labeling me will not do me or the cats any good. I just am new to this and needed advice, not judgement. You seem to have a personal problem to unleash your anger on me a poster being honest.[/nq]
I do. I have a "personal problem" with people who, through indifference, ignorant or outright hostility, endanger the lives of feral cats.
[nq:1]More people will now not ask for help or be honeast due to your harrassment and name calling.[/nq]
An honest killer doesn't get points for being honest.
[nq:1]You in fact have been a neg effect for cats rushing to judgement on aperson asking questions.[/nq]
What's this supposed to mean? That you will do less for the cats, (assuming you decide to do anything at all), because you got your feeling hurt by an anonymous poster on an internet newsgroup? Wow, I'm impressed by your commitment.
[nq:1]Sounds like I caught a tailend of a bad mood swing.[/nq]
People dangerous to feral cats always put me in a bad mood.
[nq:1]You can sit there and make a joke out of me, or call me names and fit me into your little agenda[/nq]
Huh? What "agenda" might that be?
[nq:1]but your not helping cats one bit and hopefully any new people to cats will see your post and not be afraid to ask for help.[/nq]
Okay, I'll respond to your plea for help. No, Kay, you should not go to the media and stir up *** for feral cats. There, happy now?

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RE: No-kill vs. non no-kill shelters page 9

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