[nq:1]Yawning has been considered to, "White Monkey" (Email Removed) said, "White Monkey"

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White Monkey:

[nq:2]Again just now, she was kicking her bone around with ... bone, which I think was darned helpful of him. Katrina[/nq]
[nq:1]This could have been tragic. It's not fair to the dog to set her up to resource guard when you ... let the baby essentially trap her; to a dog it's fight or flight, and this also could have been tragic.[/nq]I guess I misunderstood the trainer's advice abnd other advice I have received about not making a big deal out of him being near her or her stuff. I was watching her both times and I know when something concerns her, and these didn't she was completely relaxed about it. I shouldn't have used the term "desperation", I meant "unable to think of anything else to do". But OK, I guess I'll have to start making a big deal out of keeping them apoart, because she insists on being near him while he plays, and he moves all over the place all the time and this is a very small aprtment currently overfilled with moving boxes.

The only ways to do it will be to remiove him physically when he gets anywhere near her or her stuff, which I though was not the point, and to tell her to go away when she comes up toward him, whcih we were trying to back off on doing so she wouldn't associate him with gfeeling unwelcome. In the coffee table scenario she didn't feel trapped; he shoves by her alll the time and she just wags. She just wanted to give him more room, same as she would with on e of us.

But point taken.
[nq:1]Many dogs have a problem with crawling babies,[/nq]
She deliberately lies down with her face in his way and will move her head so that he will keep crawlking across her face; she'll scoot in a circle doing this.
[nq:1]care for my daughter as a crawling baby. My dog never snapped at the baby, but she did flutter her lips at her when the baby crawled towards her.[/nq]
Saskia lies down or holds still and wags when he crawls toward her. The only two instances of any sign of displeasure with him were while she was actively chewing on sometheing he reached for, and each time there were extenuating circumstances.
I'll find a new way to do this but I'm not sure what. I can't just tell her to keep away from him I think it was doing that excessively that contributed to the problem. What do you suggest?
Katrina
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Rocky:

"White Monkey" (Email Removed) said in
[nq:1]Now, I'm not so sure I buy this. What do you folks feel about this one? For the record, if I wasn't keeping an open mind about it I would not be posting to try to explore it.[/nq]
I agree with the trainer. Yawning is generally a sign of stress, as is sniffing and other avoidance gestures.

Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

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Rocky:

"White Monkey" (Email Removed) said in
[nq:1]The trainer stated that "dogs allowed on furniture feel equal to or dominant over their owners" and that they become confused.[/nq]
Saskia appears to obey you you in most ways. Does she get off the furniture immediately when told to? If she doesn't, then it's more of a guarding issue, and not necessarily dominance. And, IMO, resource guarding is a very serious concern.

Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

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Anonymous:

[nq:1]Saskia yawns when we rub her cheeks. She yawns when she's been being a butt head (like not wanting to ... record, if I wasn't keeping an open mind about it I would not be posting to try to explore it.[/nq]
Yawning has been considered to be a sign of stress in both humans and animals for quite a while.
http://members.aol.com/nonverbal2/yawn.htm
http://www.mindtools.com/stressym.html

Diane Blackman
There is no moral victory in proclaiming to abhor violence while preaching with violent words.
http://dog-play.com / http://dogplayshops.com /

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White Monkey:

[nq:1]Yawning has been considered to be a sign of stress in both humans and animals for quite a while. http://members.aol.com/nonverbal2/yawn.htm http://www.mindtools.com/stressym.html Diane Blackman[/nq]So when she actively solicits petting, leans on my knees, wags, and yawns once, she's stressed out? I am happy to believe it is often a sign of stress, but always? If she's always stressed out of her mind we'll have to have her put down if anything happens again, because this has been happening even while she seems relaxed, and has a big happy smile, since long before the baby as born. To rehome her if she's that stressed would be cruel, given her anxiety issues.

She adores us, including Walter, but even our good friends are treated cautiously and people on the street can't get near her. It would absolutely terrify her to go to someone else, but we were willing to consider it if anything happens again because she gets used to people over time, but not if all the time when we've thought she was relaxed she's actually stressed out!! But of course we will assume that she's capable of being happy even if she does yawn at times when we think she's relaxed, and if next-to-worst comes to next-to worst we'll look for a good childless home for her.We are both very depressed at the prospect, especially given that she is still treating the baby with love and respect except the two very brief, widely separated incidents. We'll see how it goes at the new house, where there will be more room, her crate to retreat to, more exercise, more play, more training, less opportunity to get into trouble because we'll be babyproofing from scratch and this time instead of moving from a big house to a tiny apartment we're moving from a tiny apartment to a big apartment, so we won't have to pile stuff everywhere.

It's difficult to keep the baby from trying to touch her and her things when she insists on being right next to him, but we'll find a way he is still a bit young to grasp the "pet nicely" concept but we are working on it..If we do end up having to rehome her, by the way, I have a question., Her breeder has a clause in the contract that we must give her the first chance to take Saskia if we need to rehome her. Saskia would not be happy there. We were not as well informed when we bought her the dogs there spend the nights in kennels and the days mobbing about the house and yard in a group. Saskia would be very upset spending the night in a kennel and would be "bottom dog" with the group: she's a pushover and they have a hierarchy going; there are 7 or so of them.

The question is, in general how open do breeders tend to be to letting the owner rehome a dog that isn't suitable for breeding or showing? I would explain to her that we would use the resources of the National Great Dane society, which has an excellent placement program, is the oldest "special interest club" in the Netherlands, and has a long waiting list of experienced Dane people waiting for the right dog.
Katrina

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White Monkey:

[nq:2]The trainer stated that "dogs allowed on furniture feel equal to or dominant over their owners" and that they become confused.[/nq]
[nq:1]Saskia appears to obey you you in most ways. Does she get off the furniture immediately when told to?[/nq]
Off the bed, yes. With sofas she can be a bit stubborn and need to be told a couple of times. But "her sofa" is goone and she's not allowed on the one that remains.
[nq:1]If she doesn't, then it's more of a guarding issue, and not necessarily dominance. And, IMO, resource guarding is a very serious concern. Matt. Rocky's a Dog.[/nq]I know it is, but we still haven't seen more than just the two moments of it, which we pray we can attribute to adolescence, expiring puppy license, and a confusion about hierarchy, and which we pray we can fix with consistency and training. It would break our hearts to have to rehome her, and yes, we know that's not the worst that could happen, but we believe that we would see at least one more warning before anything got serious she just isn't an aggressive dog, with people or with dogs, and I think she'd have to be pushed pretty damn far to actually bite.

She doesn't attempt to bite, for example, or growl or anything, when things have to happen like getting weighed (the vet technician and I have to wrestle her onto the scale, and she is scared) or the time the orthopedist's staff held her still for neck x-rays a few months ago.
Katrina

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Bob & Shelly:

[nq:1]So far so good here, we're getting Saskia out a lot more, playing ball and things more instead of just ... I do pet her side like she likes, she yawns?" Trainer: "Stress. She doesn't really like it. She's stressed out."[/nq]
Hi Katrina,
I mostly just lurk here, but had to comment on this one. My daughter discovered our ESS, Abby, also does this "trick". We can easily get her to yawn by rubbing the sides of her muzzle or her forehead. She does not appear to be stressed in any way (usually when sitting there, calm as can be, with her head on one of our our laps, with that glazed look of complete contentment in her eyes...).
Though who knows, maybe she is stressed too. But I'd certainly never guess it. But then we don't allow her on our couch either as that's the cat's spot. And Abby certainly knows that the cat is her superior (which is really quite comical considering she is 4 times as big as the cat).
Good luck with your situation... it sounds as though you are getting a handle on it.
Shelly

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White Monkey:

[nq:2]Saskia yawns when we rub her cheeks. She yawns when ... Trainer: "Stress. She doesn't really like it. She's stressed out."[/nq]
[nq:1]Hi Katrina, I mostly just lurk here, but had to comment on this one. My daughter discovered our ESS, Abby, ... as the cat). Good luck with your situation... it sounds as though you are getting a handle on it. Shelly[/nq]Thank you! I sincerely HOPE we're getting a handle on it! We really love this dog. We've tried to do everything right by her we even had her stomach tacked during her spay to reduce any effects if she should ever bloat. I still have a feeling she's just going through a "butt-head" period related to her age, the baby's age, and the stresses of the past few weeks.. I sincerely hope we're right. We're trying to follow all the advice, but it can be difficult.

For example, I have read this book, "Mine!", carefully now, and there is no real way to apply it to our situation it talks about building a "guarding hierarchy" and moving her up by stages to the point where her things can be handled under any circumstances, but we adults can always handle all of her things all the time, and it seemed that the baby could except for these two incidents that on the face of it look random. On the face of it it looks like the first time was "because" the day before, she had her first real dog-on-dog guarding moment when she wouldn't let a lab have his ball back (and I learned by getting my hand in the way that she has excellent bite inhibition) and the second was with a brand new toy, which the literature says (understandably) makes it particularly high value (but I could still take it right out of her mouth).

I really hope we're just dealing with a "teenager" having a little misunderstanding about her rank.
Slightly OT, I just got the results of her second opinion. She was diagnosed a few months back with "probable wobblers" and we have been scared. The second orthopedist, a very respected one we were referred to, called today. First of all he feels that her regular vet was a little overzealous in diagnosing a flat hip he feels her hips look well within normal for a Dane. The wobblers diagnosed by the local orthopedist, he says, does appear to be just that but a very mild form, and provided we keep using the harness instead of a collar and keep limiting her "bruiser play" with big dogs, he sees no reason at this point to assume it will progress, given the type of vertebral tilt and spinal narrowing, the location, and the symptomology at her age.

He thinks she will probably just lead a normal life with very occasional yelp-and-limp moments when her neck is stressed. There's only been one incident in the last months she was lying on the sofa (yes, the one that's gone), and turned to look at me in a very awkward way, with her neck twisted funny. She yelped. It's always all over in under 30 seconds. So anyway, we are extremely relieved that he thinks that it probably won't progress, that she's definitely NOT in any day-to-day pain because there is no nerve impingement, and that if it ever did progress it should be manageable for years with anti-inflammatories.

Wobblers is a scary thing, and we were very concerned about it.
Totally OT, Walter cut his first tooth yesterday. Here's hoping the other one he's working on pops through soon!
Katrina

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Anonymous:

[nq:2]Yawning has been considered to be a sign of stress in both humans and animals for quite a while.[/nq]
[nq:1]So when she actively solicits petting, leans on my knees, wags, and yawns once, she's stressed out? I am happy to believe it is often a sign of stress, but always?[/nq]
Look did I SAY always? I'm out of this conversation. I talk to rational people.

Diane Blackman
There is no moral victory in proclaiming to abhor violence while preaching with violent words.
http://dog-play.com / http://dogplayshops.com /

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RE: One more thing the trainer said page 3

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