mysmelly.com

Paula:

[nq:2]@news.coretel.net: And this attorney you allegedly consulted didn't inform you ... one person to tell another to shut the hell up?[/nq]
[nq:1]She and you can yell STFU all you want, and I'll respond if it amuses me. You can play nice ... you start rattling legal sabers, then it ceases to be the usual usenet fun and games, and I'll respond accordingly.[/nq]
You still don't get the whole freedom of speech thing. If you did talk to an attorney, you didn't pay very good attention. But that's to be expected, all things considered.
Paula

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Paul E. Schoen:

[nq:1]And there is not only derision and criticism here. I have offered advice and honest questions to you about Muttley, ... ignored. If you only respond to the negative comments, and ignore the neutral ones, you will stop getting neutral ones.[/nq]
I never thought about it in quite that way. I do appreciate all the good, or at least kindly offered, advice, and I have been trying to assimilate it and use it. I will need to go back and make sure your questions and comments are not lost in other posts. Usually I read all the new posts in a thread, and then summarize my responses in a single post. It is easier for me to explain my position and clear up misunderstandings in one place, rather than make quick replies to each. So I have sometimes offended people who have thought my negative remarks were directed at them, and I may appear to ignore those who have kindly offered advice and encouragement.

So, thank you for the suggestions.
I found your post with the attention-getting suggestions (6/27/07), and they make a lot of sense. At that time, I was trying Jerry's methods and what you suggested did not follow his exact advice. So I filed it away for future reference. Also, I ended my post with a reference to the lack of such attention getting methods in Janet's class:
[nq:1]This was definitely lacking in Janet's class. I was immediately barking commands and applying corrections to enforce sits and stays, ... thinking of ways to "fix" this mistreatment, by attacking somebody in the class, which was the only place this occurred.[/nq]
and you ended your post with:
"So it is no longer that the other dog provoked him somehow?? Looked at him funny? Insulted his mother? "
It was obviously a jocular comment, but seemed to be not worthy of an immediate reply. I don't want to drag that ancient history back up, but I was trying to understand exactly why the events occurred, using some of my more recent "knowledge". I tend to overprocess things, seeking various explanations, and eventually arriving at what seems to be the simplest and most logical. Occam's Razor. And I continually seek new information, and question anything I am told, to be sure it is correct. This works well for electronics, where prototypes can be built, or SPICE simulations run, to prove or disprove things. Dog behavior is a totally new and fascinating area for me, but my approach may not be suitable to a "soft" science. And the many often contradictory opinions and theories beg for experimentation and confirmation.
Thanks,
Paul and Muttley

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Marcel Beaudoin:

[nq:2]If you only respond to the negative comments, and ignore the neutral ones, you will stop getting neutral ones.[/nq]
[nq:1]I never thought about it in quite that way. I do appreciate all the good, or at least kindly offered, ... negative remarks were directed at them, and I may appear to ignore those who have kindly offered advice and encouragement.[/nq]
If you are afraid of missing the helpful comments, a note like "And thanks to all those that offered advice, I will ry it out when..." Another option is, when doing your one reply, to format it like this

Mook 1:(re:blah blah)
Thanks, blah blah blah
Mook 2: (re:bloo bloo bloo)
Thanks, blah blah blah
[nq:1]I found your post with the attention-getting suggestions (6/27/07), and they make a lot of sense. At that time, I was trying Jerry's methods and what you suggested did not follow his exact advice. So I filed it away for future reference.[/nq]
[nq:1]and you ended your post with: "So it is no longer that the other dog provoked him somehow?? Looked at him funny? Insulted his mother? "[/nq]
I made that comment, but in hindsight, I should have explained it further. From my point of view, it appears that you are trying too hard to determine an excuse to explain Muttley's behaviour. You are trying to pigeonhole Muttley so that you can find some definate training method that will be guaranteed to work on Muttley.
Doesn't work. Muttley is a living being, and thus can't be pigeonholed. The longer you spend looking for why Muttley did something, the longer you will be going without actually doing something about it.
[nq:1]I tend to overprocess things, seeking various explanations, and eventually arriving at what seems to be the simplest and most ... not be suitable to a "soft" science. And the many often contradictory opinions and theories beg for experimentation and confirmation.[/nq]
Most training methods will work on most dogs. There are dogs at either end of the spectrum (extremely sensitive or extremely indifferent) that may require special handling, but most training methods will work on most dogs.
The point to keep in mind is this: You are going to the training course not to train Muttley, but for you to learn how to train Muttley. And this training must go on every day, 5 or 10 minutes at a time, 3 or 4 times a day. Ideally, when Muttley has had some of his physical energy burned off.

Marcel Beaudoin and Moogli

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Paul E. Schoen:

[nq:1]Most training methods will work on most dogs. There are dogs at either end of the spectrum (extremely sensitive or extremely indifferent) that may require special handling, but most training methods will work on most dogs.[/nq]
Some very good points. I have been in communication with a local trainer, and Muttley and I will probably meet her this afternoon. She believes that breeds have some hardwired traits that must be taken into account with regard to training methods, tethering, behavior with strangers and other dogs, etc. I'll provide details after the meeting, probably in a new post (this one has drifted and just about run its course).
[nq:1]The point to keep in mind is this: You are going to the training course not to train Muttley, but ... a time, 3 or 4 times a day. Ideally, when Muttley has had some of his physical energy burned off.[/nq]
This is a key issue that I could not understand when I was being so strongly urged to take Muttley to training class with Janet, when at that time I was actively seeking to rehome him. I would have been happy to help a new owner obtain training, and I thought it might even be counterproductive to invest a lot of time for me to learn how to train him. Of course, now that he is mine, I am much more motivated to get that training, and I can already see that what I learned in Janet's classes, and even more from my reading and dialog with other trainers, has been valuable in my dealing with Lucky and other dogs.
I think it would be very useful (and maybe even lucrative) for someone to offer dog training classes for people, to teach them how to approach an unfamiliar dog, how to read their body language, proper way to offer treats, dealing with aggression, tethering, grooming, nutrition, breed differences, and other topics. Some of these are well covered in many books, and I think any obedience training should include required and recommended reading. The more interactive skills could be taught with the instructors' dogs, to see how a prospective or actual dog owner behaves with a strange dog, but in this case one that is "safe" due to excellent training or breed characteristics.
There are some who are "dog people" and "cat people" with natural affinity for animals, and others who are clueless or even antagonistic or unreasonably frightened. I know that I love animals, but there is still much for me to learn. And I also like people, but there may be things I say or do that cause the animosity I have sometimes experienced here and on CBB. I am very good about extending help to others and teaching them what I know, but I have problems with authority figures who tell me what to do, rather than present choices and consequences and allow me to make my own decisions.
Thanks,
Paul and Muttley

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Shelly:

[nq:1]This is a key issue that I could not understand when I was being so strongly urged to take Muttley ... thought it might even be counterproductive to invest a lot of time for me to learn how to train him.[/nq]
No one should be handed an out of control, completely untrained and unsocialized dog. You had a duty to train him if you were going to rehome him. Of course, the new owners would need to train him, as well. That's how training works it is on-going.
You seem to think that it would be silly to work with a dog that is going to be rehomed. I suggest that you talk to some real, live rescue folks about that, because they will educimate you toot de sweet. Also, they might laugh in your face. The fact is that most reputable rescue groups work on training and socializing dogs while in foster care, and they also require that the new owners complete a basic obedience class with the dog.
[nq:1]Of course, now that he is mine, I am much more motivated to get that training,[/nq]
The fact is that if you were disinclined to do the right thing, you should have never taken on a dog in the first place, regardless of whether you intended to keep him or rehome him.

Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

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Paul E. Schoen:

[nq:2]This is a key issue that I could not understand ... of time for me to learn how to train him.[/nq]
[nq:1]No one should be handed an out of control, completely untrained and unsocialized dog. You had a duty to train ... rehome him. Of course, the new owners would need to train him, as well. That's how training works it is on-going.[/nq]
I was handed just such a dog, and I did not have any serious issues with him. He was bratty and pulled on his leash, but otherwise, to me, he was just a big mutt who enjoyed being with his Rottie *** and hated to be confined. His cat aggression was my main concern, and this was an emergency rescue. At least I was able to offer a prospective owner some time to evaluate the dog and make a decision that did not have the dog's life at stake.
[nq:1]You seem to think that it would be silly to work with a dog that is going to be rehomed. ... while in foster care, and they also require that the new owners complete a basic obedience class with the dog.[/nq]
[nq:2]Of course, now that he is mine, I am much more motivated to get that training,[/nq]
[nq:1]The fact is that if you were disinclined to do the right thing, you should have never taken on a dog in the first place, regardless of whether you intended to keep him or rehome him.[/nq]You seem to forget, or perhaps cannot recognize, the power of compassion and the bond that can quickly form between a man (or woman) and a dog. I had known and loved dogs in the past, but in most of my adult life I was a cat person. Muttley was the first dog I had the pleasure of meeting where I had to take an active part in his welfare. There was no way I was going to allow him to be PTS just because there was no room for him and big dogs are harder to adopt.

As my friend Helene said, "He had his paws around my heart". When he looked at me with his big brown eyes as I was about to surrender him to the SPCA, my compassion would not allow me to turn my back and walk away with just a memory. Maybe I should not get involved in rescue. Looking at cages full of doomed animals, and being unable to save them all, might be too much. YMMV,
Paul and Muttley

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Melinda Shore:

[nq:1]I was handed just such a dog, and I did not have any serious issues with him.[/nq]
What?

Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed)

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

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Shelly:

[nq:1]I was handed just such a dog,[/nq]
Yes, as a rescuer! As such, it is your duty to make sure that dog is well prepared to be a successful pet.
And if he was given to you with the intention of him being your own dog, and not a foster, then shame on the person who did so. It was irresponsible.
[nq:1]and I did not have any serious issues with him.[/nq]
The hell you didn't!
[nq:1]You seem to forget, or perhaps cannot recognize, the power of compassion and the bond that can quickly form between a man (or woman) and a dog.[/nq]
I know all too well about those bonds and how they are formed. That is why I do not foster dogs for rescue. I would be a miserable failure at it, so to do so would be irresponsible of me.
[nq:1]I had known and loved dogs in the past, but in most of my adult life I was a cat person.[/nq]
Boo-freaking-hoo. So was I. I spent a good portion of my high school and early adult years doing feral cat rescue.
[nq:1]There was no way I was going to allow him to be PTS[/nq]
I'm criticizing you for not training your dog. I'm not telling you to have him put to sleep.
[nq:1]"He had his paws around my heart".[/nq]
There is nothing wrong with that, but it's no excuse for making irresponsible decisions regarding him.
[nq:1]Maybe I should not get involved in rescue.[/nq]
Ya think?! At the very least, you should be involved with a responsible rescue. That would be pretty much any that are not run by your friend Helene, as she is abusing your friendship by manipulating you into biting off more than you can chew.
[nq:1]Looking at cages full of doomed animals, and being unable to save them all, might be too much. YMMV,[/nq]
There are things you can do for rescues that do not involve looking at cages of doomed animals. You could volunteer to transport. You could also make actual progress with training the dog you have*, then use those skills to help work with rescue dogs. You can volunteer to help with adoption fairs. If you were *really interested in helping with rescue, you would pick a group (or groups), contact them, and ask if there is anything they could use your help with.

Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

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Handsome Jack Morrison:

[nq:1]Maybe I should not get involved in rescue.[/nq]
Bingo!
Please, please, please stay uninvolved in rescue!

This is one area where your detachment will be greatly appreciated by everyone who's already involved in rescue!

Handsome Jack Morrison
Finally located! A woman for Paul Schoen!
http://www.reuters.com/news/video/videoStory?videoId=59730

Ten Politically Incorrect Truths About Human Nature. Heh. http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20070622-002.xml

Hating America.
http://www.hudsonreview.com/BawerSp04.html

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RE: Opposition Reflex page 9

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