[nq:1]That's irrelevant.[/nq] BORING! MORE INTEREST,, [nq:2]OK, shelly: after

Melinda Shore:

[nq:1]That's irrelevant.[/nq]
BORING! MORE INTEREST, PLEASE!!

Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed)

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

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KWBrown:

[nq:2]OK, shelly: after - what was it? - respectively, 11 and 5 years you've been training your dogs, ARE they now trained?[/nq]
[nq:1]ha! okay, a show of hands, please. does anyone here have a dog who is "trained"?[/nq]
Sit.
Down.
Wait.
Stay (not the same thing)
Roll Over.
Play Dead.
Here.
Walk near me and don't yank on that leash.
Sit still while I talk to (and shake hands with) this nice person here. Heel.
Shake Hands.
Look at Me
Kennel
Sit on Whistle.
Sit in front of me.
Sit at heel.
Fly from sitting in front of me to sitting at heel. Put your nose on the palm of my hand.
Put your foot on that margarine lid.
Fetch that bumper.
Fetch whatever I tell you to fetch and don't drop it. I'll take it from you.
Drop that.
Leave that
Stay nearby
Pee
Poop
Jump over that one.
Run over/through the (tunnel, walk, a-frame, jump, teeter) I just named. Stop.
Speed Up.
Slow Down.
Stay precisely at heel, while I rotate in place through 360 degrees, clockwise, counter-clockwise, in 10-degree increments. Run/swim in the direction you're sent until I tell you to stop with a whistle. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.
(Hand signals)
Back, spinning left or right, depending on the hand I use Over
Angle Back
Angle In
Come In
Sit
Down
Stand
(More concepts that we're refining right now)
Run or swim in a straight line to that bird. Do not take shortcuts around cover or water. Straight. Line.
Do not fade downwind, away from the line you set off on. Do not fade up or down a hillside you're running along. Watch three birds fall. Remember all three, but ignore them until you've picked up another bird you didn't see, but I'm going to tell you about. Then go get the other three.
Sit still and be quiet while the dog three feet away picks up all of your birds.
Find the one object that I handled among twenty identical ones in that pile over there. Bring it back.
You may have to get in and out of the water several times on your way across islands and points to get that bird. Do it. Do not go and try to kiss the person who threw the bird. Stay within gun-range and find the hidden birds. Flush a bird you find into the air. Sit when you hear a shot, then pick up the bird. Stand still when a judge puts his hands on you. Do not wag so hard that your feet move.
When you're running toward me, screech to a halt and lie down when I give you the signal.
Go get the newspaper.
Bring me my slippers.
Stand still while the little girl who's afraid of dogs pats you.

...but we have at least another year of work before she'll be ready to run Master Hunter stakes...
Nope. My dog isn't "trained," as if "trained" is an end-point. "Trained" is a journey, and you teach something new many days, and on others you go back and re-visit or refine an old concept.

Kate
and Storm the FCR

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Robin Nuttall:

[nq:2]OK, shelly: after - what was it? - respectively, 11 and 5 years you've been training your dogs, ARE they now trained?[/nq]
[nq:1]ha! okay, a show of hands, please. does anyone here have a dog who is "trained"?[/nq]
The only people who have completely trained dogs are those people whose own mental faculties are so low that they can only progress to a certain level.
Saying a dog is completely trained is like saying a human has learned everything there is to know. The only humans who ever say they know everything are the ones who know little to nothing. The only people who say their dogs are trained are those who know little about training. Dog training, like human learning is a lifelong process. Dogs are ever curious, ever able to assimilate more, ever able to expand in abilities as long as they are allowed and encouraged to do so.

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Robin Nuttall:

[nq:2]It works on two dogs. Let me see. How many millions of dogs are in the U.S.?[/nq]
[nq:1]That's irrelevant.[/nq]
Nope. You're extrapolating a sample size of two to represent all dogs.

You have said YOUR dogs lick kittens, and put that out as evidence of prey drive.
[nq:1]Well, you've just been given a pretty good description of my male AmStaff mix, Clyde - "mothering instinct" and "talking" (though not English) and all. You do know what an AmStaff mix is, I suppose?[/nq]
But neither mothering nor talking demonstrates any particular high prey drive.
[nq:2]Dogs with strong wills, strong primitive instincts.[/nq]
[nq:1]You mean, like this? http://www.shrrn.org/prey.htm >[/nq]
No. Not like that. Try again.
[nq:1]But, darling, this is Clyde! The only thing that makes him calm down when in such frenzy is sound distraction together with "GOOD boy!"[/nq]
Gee. My dogs don't do any of that. Guess you need to train Clyde a bit better, eh.
[nq:2]Dogs who are genetically not terribly interested in pleasing their owner.[/nq]
[nq:1]You mean, one who doesn't roll on his back presenting his belly for you to scratch? One like Clyde?[/nq]
Um, no. I mean dogs who look at you and say, "eh, I'll come in a minute. I'm busy over here." Dogs who are more self-interested than human compliant. Dogs who find behaviors such as chasing things, barking, or whatever, extremely self-reinforcing certainly more fun than a pat or praise from a human.
[nq:2]They aren't going to really care much if you just say, "oh, please don't do that."[/nq]
[nq:1]Have you ever actually tried, or are you relying just on imagination?[/nq]
Why yes! I tried it just today. There was a stray dog running the fenceline, and Cala was in a frenzy, barking, running the fenceline with the dog. For a giggle I went outside and said, "Oh Cala, please don't do that, I don't like it!" Hey, guess what! The effect was bupkis!! Nothing! Not a hitch in her stride! Since I know dogs, I know that at that point, the limbic brain, the branstem, the instinct, had totally overwhelmed all cognitive and upper brain thought. She was literally incapable of hearing or processing anything I said to her.
[nq:2]Other training must be employed to get them to pay attention.[/nq]
[nq:1]Such as the wonderful prong collar that has been working so well for shelly?[/nq]
Depends on the dog, but sure. Whatever works. In my case with Cala today, a prong would have been ineffective. I had to physically catch her and carry her 60 pound carcass inside.
[nq:2]WILL be gone.[/nq]
[nq:1]So much for your training, then![/nq]
Nope. Has nothing to do with training. It's to do with breeds and breed instinct. If you take a critter bred for thousands of years to chase and kill rabbit, that's what it wants to do. Training can enhance genetics, but it can't change genetics.
[nq:1]One of mine is an AmStaff mix. Wanna hear what an AmStaff site says about these dogs?[/nq]
You have a mix. With every description of an accommodating personality. AmStaffs are known for their compliance to humans. Sorry, I'm not buying it. You don't have a clue.
Further, you are obviously determined to not listen to anyone but the insane person on the board. As far as I'm concerned at this point, you're trolling. Or stupid. Or both. But not worth wasting my time on, that's for sure.

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Debbie S:

Or three. :-/ I went riding once with a woman who was leading her mare's foal, the horses spooked in different directions, and she lost three fingers. I was sent looking for them in the grass. It's not something I'm likely to forget, and has made me very aware of how I hold leads, irregardless of what's on the other end.
And as a strange aside, it made me more than a little weird about dirty fingernails.
Debbie

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shelly:

[nq:1]Training can enhance genetics, but it can't change genetics.[/nq]
yabbut, Lucy doesn't believe in temperamental hard-wiring.
[nq:1]AmStaffs are known for their compliance to humans.[/nq]
except when they don't. i don't know how old Lucy's AmStaff mix is, but hopefully she won't get a really rude awakening some day when the dog's prey/fight drives kick in. if/when it does, she'll be yet one more of those clueless owners who wring their hands while wailing "my sweet dog has never been aggressive before!"

shelly
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette>> http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com

I would prefer not to.
Bartleby the Scrivener

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Tara:

[nq:1]At least, I can walk my dogs on a leash without fear that they would bolt or kill some other creature on the way.[/nq]
And this right here is the crux, isn't it?
I know of two dogs for whom Jerry's methods did not have the desired effect..and this was applied by someone who agrees with Jerry's methods and applied them in the way it is laid out in The Manual. And since he's a professional handler and trainer (and since Jer himself says he knew exactly what he was doing) I bet he applied the methods far better than you could ever hope to. And yet the dogs were never "cured". Never trustworthy. Never fully reliable.
Since its clear that you meant to imply that the only reason for your "success" and shelly's "failure" (in quotes because you have not shown an inordinate amount of success, and shelly has not shown failure) is one of which method was applied, your point is pretty..well, pointless here. On dogs who actually had very high prey drives and aggression issues Jer's methods did little more than what other trainers would call "manage" the problem. Of course Jer calls that sort of thing 100% success when its his method, and a failure when its someone else's.
He's a hypocrite, and you're doing not much more than spouting the same hypocrisy. And you're doing a fine job of it, I might add. Tara

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diannes:

[nq:2]ha! okay, a show of hands, please. does anyone here have a dog who is "trained"?[/nq]
[nq:1]The only people who have completely trained dogs are those people whose own mental faculties are so low that they can only progress to a certain level.[/nq]
Um. In the four years during which Patience was retired, I found further training unnecessary; she'd had perfectly good manners for years and I didn't really need to use any of the four quadrants. Then came that fateful day a year ago when I woke up and realized that if I intended to put a CD on her I'd better get to work. I took her for a private obedience lesson, found she still enjoyed working, and we're now back to doing umpteen different dog sports and she's learning new things all the time. So maybe that proves your point, though I certainly didn't intend it to.

At any rate, one of the things that I think consistently gets lost in this kind of discussion is that manners training consists almost entirely of "don't do this" things: don't pull on the leash, don't chase the cat, don't pee in the house, don't jump on people, don't get in the garbage, and so on. And, frankly, there is an incredible amount of latitude in teaching the "don'ts". OTOH a dog can have perfectly good manners while only knowing how to do a few things on command. Those are leave it, come, sit, down and stay - and I'd argue that only the first two are essential. Still, those things are not exactly canine rocket science and again there are any number of methods that work perfectly well to teach them.
What I found when I was teaching basic manners obedience was that the real challenge was finding techniques for each person that made sense to them, that suited their personality and worked for the issues that they had with their dog. Just as one example, many people (myself included) tend to "praise their dogs for breathing" - I tell my dogs constantly that they're good dogs, pretty dogs, excellent dogs, and so on. It's completely useless to have a person like this rely on praise for teaching their dog - the dog hears it all the time, so it has lost any possible utility for actually communicating anything to the dog.

And trust me, it's far easier to teach that person how to properly use food or a toy or petting as a reward than it is to try to get them to eliminate the habit of constant praise (which 99 times out of 100 they're not even aware of!)But back to my initial point: the "don'ts" and the minimal "do"s that are required for basic good manners really shouldn't take that long for a dog to acquire and perform reliably. Take my baby Utah. He's 1.5 years old, I've had him two weeks, and it appears that he was allowed to get away with some behaviors in his first home that are simply not acceptable to me - these are principally jumping on people and mouthing. He's made very good progress on these issues in the short time I've had him, and I expect him to be fully trained and reliable on his manners by the end of the month.

At that point he won't need any more training - if he were to be a pet, he'd be fine. Of course it won't come as a surprise to anyone who knows me that he's going to get far more than that. But there is a point in the very near future at which I could stop and say "he's trained".

JFWIW,
Dianne & Patience
& baby Utah (who worked sheep for the first time today, and did a wonderful job)

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RE: What does "bupkis" really mean page 11

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