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Hehehe! Let the countdown begin!

congratulations! and fingers crossed for an uneventful arrival to Planet Urth!

shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
I was wondering where you'd gotten to these days!

Thanks for the concern! Just busy with two dogs getting ready for obedience competition (new thing for me) and lots of other stuff.
Yes.We were all in the house at that time. Everyone else was sitting at the kitchen table and I had ... me,lolling about the ac vents.So,I was the only one who had left the arena and was not in her place.

Exactly! Welcome to the ordered mind of the ACD. You just weren't supposed to leave the group!
keep the pack together - at least in her own mind.

This makes perfect sense to me. This behavior wasn't done with any sort of malice at all,in my mind. She's ... she was acting on pure instinct alone. I was having problems putting my finger on what that instinct might be.

Herding. They like to keep their people and fellow animals in groups. I'm sure she didn't intend any malice or she would have connected and given you a nasty, almond-shaped bruise.
trying to bring the dog into submission. They are a challenge!

My feelings about ACDs as well.I like them and wouldn't mind having one,but I still would never recommend them to most people. More so than other breed, I find them unsuitable to the average dog owner.[/nq]I totally agree! Even soft cowdogs can be hard to manage, because they are still drivey. Actually, I think the soft ones are harder becuase their instincts are so strong they still get the better of them when you least expect it, but they can become fearful and defensive in a heartbeat. My ACD boy is a bit like this - I have to handle him with a great deal of finesse. Recently, I "fostered" a truly messed up one that was on his way back to his breeder and it was a horrible thing to see.

He was totally panicked when he came - a snapping, fear-aggressive wig-out of a dog. Within 24 hours, he was acting friendly and was romping and playing with my ACD boy (my girl ignored him, as usual for her). By the time he made his trip from here (Illinois) back to the Dakotas, he was the same sweet, happy boy that the breeder had sent to the family 6 months prior. He was a softie and I feel was grossly mishandled (possibly sent to an old-school Koehler-type trainer for protection work! YIKES!).

He's now being trained and shown by a 7-year-old.
BTW, you may or may not recall that I have a pit bull, too. She was downright EASY to raise compared to my cowdogs - a true cream puff! And they're hardly "beginner" dogs, either, they say.
takes a special kind of person to admire that... LOL

I truly do like it.She's very interesting to observe and trying to figure out what she's thinking is very fun ... ACD girl.Or it could just be because I understand Shepherds much more than ACDs,(but I really don't think that's it.)

IMHO, cowdogs are quite unique among the breeds. At times I feel they're truly sentient beings, at times they are android-like in their fixed reactions to things. Perhaps this is because of the infusion of Dingo blood in the not-too-distant past, and even moreso among the non-AKC variety. While they are truly domesticated, unlike the Dingo, I think they have the vestiges of wild-smarts and self-direction more than any breed I can think of.
Biscuit is very different. I think I really am observing an ACD in about as much as it's pure form ... into contact with a lot of RL herding and working dogs,which is where I think they may have gotten Biscuit.

That would explain it. Some of the farm bred dogs are tough as nails and much harder and drivier than the AKC variety. But the AKC folks are going to great lengths to try to rid the dogs of some genetic issues, like PRA (we finally have a test!), torn ACLs, hip and patella problems and deafness. There are still plenty of AKC breeders going for the tough temperaments along with the improvements.
Does this help?

Enormously! Thanks so much.

No problem! A fascinating page about cattle dogs is Mark Abbott's ACD FAQ: http://members.cox.net/markabbott/ACDfaq/acdman.html

If you ever do decide to get yourself an ACD, your fascination with them tells me that you may be a goner if you do! LOL... I think you'd make a great cowdog owner!
Tracy
He was a softie and I feel was grossly mishandled (possibly sent to an old-school Koehler-type trainer for protection work!

So, Tracy, should I assume from the above that you:
1. are psychic?
2. automatically associate mishandling with "Koehler-type" (i.e.,traditional) training?
None of the above?
Both?

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to reply via e-mail
Mookie better start to lookie over his shoulder:
http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200405251028.asp

The Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler Little Green Footballs http://nicedoggie.net / http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog / Glenn Reynolds - InstaPundit Steven Den Beste http://www.instapundit.com / http://www.denbeste.nu / The Belmont Club Dhimmi Watch http://belmontclub.blogspot.com / http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch / Don Luskin Rightwing News http://www.poorandstupid.com/chronicle.asp http://www.rightwingnews.com / Allah is in the house! Victor Davis Hanson-Private Papers http://www.allahpundit.com/ http://victorhanson.com/index.html
He was a softie and I feel was grossly mishandled (possibly sent to an old-school Koehler-type trainer for protection work!

So, Tracy, should I assume from the above that you: 1. are psychic? 2. automatically associate mishandling with "Koehler-type" (i.e., traditional) training? None of the above? Both?

Hi, Jack..
None of the above. The owners had told the breeder they wanted to train their dog to be a "guard dog" - the breeder suggested they start with basic obedience and suggested a trainer she knew in the area. The owners said they already knew of a trainer that trained protection dogs, but they'd give the breeder's recommendation a call. The breeder checked up - they never called the trainer she recommended, but the owners did talk about sending the dog to a trainer (not going to classes). So, no, I'm not psychic - the breeder and I discussed the possiblities at length. It was her conclusion based on discussions with the owners.
Regarding question 2, no, I don't automatically associate Koehler-type training with mishandling. I'm not even talking about the modified Koehler methods used in most dog classes. This trainer that the folks mentioned to the breeder trains guard dogs and protection dogs. I don't believe there is a "one-size fits all" training method. This particular dog was extremely soft and fearful, not exactly well-suited to the type of work they decided that the dog should do.

Some dogs do just fine, even thrive on strong correction - some shut down. Koehler has it's place in dog training, but not with this dog. If you would have seen how messed up he was - and I'm NOT attributing this all to the way he was trained - you, too, would know that he had been mishandled. Whatever happened to this dog was not right for him.
Thanks for asking, and I'm sorry that I wasn't more clear.

Regards,
Tracy
()
So, Tracy, should I assume from the above that you: ... with "Koehler-type" (i.e., traditional) training? None of the above? Both?

Hi, Jack.. None of the above.

I didn't think so. But I wanted to be sure.
()
Some dogs do just fine, even thrive on strong correction - some shut down. Koehler has it's place in dog training, but not with this dog.

I've trained dogs for a long, long time, Tracy, and while I also agree with you, that there is no "one size fits all" training method, there indeed are ways to ADAPT just about any method to any dog.

And, IMO, that generally depends on the capabilities of the TRAINER, not the limitations of any particular method.
I know that it's illogical (it was to me, too), for example, to think that "soft" or "fearful" dogs could ever respond well to e-collar training, but they do.
In the right hands, today's e-collars can ADAPT to the "hardness" or "softness" of any dog, and so can most of the traditional methods.

Plus, I think a lot of people confuse a dog's lack of desire with "softness."
I.e., did the dog lose interest because of the correction? Or because of a lack of desire?
A good trainer can build up a dog's desire to a point, but he can't overcome a dog's genes.
If we could do that, we could take any of those "show" Labs and make a bunch of Super Chiefs out of them. But we can't.
If you would have seen how messed up he was - and I'm NOT attributing this all to the way he was trained - you, too, would know that he had been mishandled.

It sounds like that was a definite possibility, but the word "mishandling" covers an awful lot of ground.
Thanks for asking, and I'm sorry that I wasn't more clear.

No problemo. I always enjoy your posts, Tracy, so I just wanted to make sure that I understood where you were coming from.

Thanks for clearing it up!

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to reply via e-mail
Mookie better start to lookie over his shoulder:
http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200405251028.asp

The Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler Little Green Footballs http://nicedoggie.net / http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog / Glenn Reynolds - InstaPundit Steven Den Beste http://www.instapundit.com / http://www.denbeste.nu / The Belmont Club Dhimmi Watch http://belmontclub.blogspot.com / http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch / Don Luskin Rightwing News http://www.poorandstupid.com/chronicle.asp http://www.rightwingnews.com / Allah is in the house! Victor Davis Hanson-Private Papers http://www.allahpundit.com/ http://victorhanson.com/index.html
Oh yeah,lest I forget and you call me a big meany pants and yell at me again,

MOI? Yell? How very un-ladylike. You wouldn't be accusing me of being un-ladylike, would you?Bite your tongue! Hope everything goes smoothly with the delivery.

It did! She was induced that morning and born at 4:45 that afternoon. For being initially reluctant to come out,once she made up her mind,she couldn't get out fast enough.The nurse and my son almost delivered her after only about 30 mins. or so of struggling hard.
My son managed not to pass out during the needles ceremony by leaving the delivery room during those moments. Other than that,he was totally elated and wired and barely made sense as he jumbled out everything in a rush.He's totally and completely besotted with his new daughter. When do you suppose
you'll be posting pictures?

Just as soon as I get some. Son says he's got about 20 ready to send right now and for us to get ready to have our pc bombarded.

Terri
Hehehe! Let the countdown begin!

congratulations! and fingers crossed for an uneventful arrival to Planet Urth!

Thanks! I just realized I forgot to give Suja the pertinents. Hailey Nicole;

8 lbs.9 oz and 22 inches long. Blonde hair,(which was a bigsurprise,)as both her Momma and her Grandma have red hair.

Gotta go book my flight now, and I've got one more quilt to finish for her asap.
Terri
Thanks! I just realized I forgot to give Suja the pertinents. Hailey Nicole; 8 lbs.9 oz and 22 inches long.

wow! she's a big 'un!
Blonde hair,(which was a big surprise,)as both her Momma and her Grandma have red hair.

it could turn red. i was born with black hair, it turned blonde, then it turned light red, then it turned dirty blonde. now it's Very Red.
Gotta go book my flight now, and I've got one more quilt to finish for her asap.

have fun!

shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
Blonde hair,(which was a big surprise,)as both her Momma and her Grandma have red hair.

What colour is the mailman's hair?
it could turn red. i was born with black hair, it turned blonde, then it turned light red, then it turned dirty blonde.

I was born with red hair, then it turned brown. Now it's turning pink.
now it's Very Red.

Bottle Red doesn't count.

Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
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