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Now it's turning pink.

commie.
Bottle Red doesn't count.

duh! that's why i didn't include it in the same sentence with the aforementioned color changes. HTH!

shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
Absolutely! But if you read my description of him upon his arrival below, you will see why I drew the conclusion that no one adapted anything to this dog.
And, IMO, that generally depends on the capabilities of the TRAINER, not the limitations of any particular method. I know ... too), for example, to think that "soft" or "fearful" dogs could ever respond well to e-collar training, but they do.

And I, as you may know if you've been reading my posts, have used prong collars on "soft" dogs. I'm using one now on my Basset, whom I've just started training to heel - he's very soft tempered, but is a die-hard leash puller and a choke collar literally chokes him, as he does not respond to a regular correction with it. I've used one on my pit bull, too - she's now transitioned to a regular choke collar, and is off-lead in obedience class.
In the right hands, today's e-collars can ADAPT to the "hardness" or "softness" of any dog, and so can most of the traditional methods.

Including prong collars - they're only as severe as the handler makes them. The biggest problem I see with them is that some people are clods - others are abusive - and some are just unschooled in fitting and using them.
Plus, I think a lot of people confuse a dog's lack of desire with "softness." I.e., did the dog lose interest because of the correction? Or because of a lack of desire?

Good point! I judge a dog's softness or hardness by their tenacity, their skin sensitivity, and their reaction to confusion. My softie ACD boy has a desire to please, but he's easily confused and will shut completely down if he's corrected while he's confused. I have to handle him with kid gloves. My pit bull, on the other hand, has a great desire to please, but will test the limits. She's not easily confused, and will try different behaviors to get rewards, and I've never seen her shut down from a correction.
how messed up he was - and I'm NOT attributing ... - you, too, would know that he had been mishandled.

It sounds like that was a definite possibility, but the word "mishandling" covers an awful lot of ground.[/nq]True. Please bear in mind that I was writing a newsgroup post (not a book! lol) covering a broader subject and using that as an example. This dog was mishandled in many, many ways ... some I know of, and some the breeder and I can only speculate on based on his subsequent behavior and what we know from the owners. This was a soft dog - very soft and timid - who had, for the first 9 months of his life been primarily handled and trained by a 7-year-old.

Great with kids, well-socialized, but soft. Six months later (now with a colorful bite history) he was delivered to me muzzled, with prong and choke collar on, eyes wide with fear and hackles up from stem to stern, slinking like a wolf. When I took him for a potty walk, he walked around a tree and when he felt the leash get tight, he flipped out. When I took all of that crap off him in the house, he flipped out again, went into a snapping fit when I came near him and spewed loose poop all over my living room trying to get away.

He was a total panic and completely defensive. Thank god I had set up his crate - I opened the door and yelled "KENNEL!" (I know his breeder trains and uses this command) and in he went. Once he was in, I had to literally snare him to get him out again without getting bitten. He would growl and raise his hackles any time any dog or person came near his crate. Twenty-four hours later, this same dog was romping and playing with mine, was coming up to me and soliciting attention from me and my S.O.

with tail wagging. Now he's back to being trained and shown by the little girl, accepts strangers in a friendly way and has shown none of the psychotic behavior I saw when he came here. What does this tell you?
Thanks for asking, and I'm sorry that I wasn't more clear.

No problemo. I always enjoy your posts, Tracy, so I just wanted to make sure that I understood where you were coming from. Thanks for clearing it up!

Thanks for the kind words - I enjoy your posts, too! My original point was that this dog wasn't suitable for protection training, which we're pretty sure he got, and probably NOT from a reputable trainer, since a reputable trainer would have found this puppy an unsuitable candidate. I've never dealt with such a messed up dog before, and to see him come around so fast was amazing to me. I'm guessing that I did something right with him. But it was only partially me - the one who got him out of his fear funk was my male ACD, who poked and danced around him for about an hour (on day two) until he got him to play.

Dogs are amazing creatures...
Sorry to digress.
Kind Regards,
Tracy
()
I've trained dogs for a long, long time, Tracy, and ... ways to ADAPT just about any method to any dog.

Absolutely! But if you read my description of him upon his arrival below, you will see why I drew the conclusion that no one adapted anything to this dog.

But the list of reasons that could account for a just-rescued "snapping, fear-aggressive wig-out of a dog" is virtually endless.

I'm still a little unsure why, in the absence of direct evidence, you chose to blame a particular training method for it.

But what the heck...no blood, no foul.
And, IMO, that generally depends on the capabilities of the ... could ever respond well to e-collar training, but they do.

And I, as you may know if you've been reading my posts, have used prong collars on ... on my pit bull, too - she's now transitioned to a regular choke collar, and is off-lead in obedience class.

No flames from me, Tracy!
I believe in doing/using anything that works.
In the right hands, today's e-collars can ADAPT to the "hardness" or "softness" of any dog, and so can most of the traditional methods.

Including prong collars - they're only as severe as the handler makes them. The biggest problem I see with them is that some people are clods - others are abusive - and some are just unschooled in fitting and using them.

Absolutely!
Plus, I think a lot of people confuse a dog's ... of the correction? Or because of a lack of desire?

Good point! I judge a dog's softness or hardness by their tenacity, their skin sensitivity, and their reaction to confusion. ... easily confused, and will try different behaviors to get rewards, and I've never seen her shut down from a correction.

All the hallmarks of a very good trainer, IMO.
It sounds like that was a definite possibility, but the word "mishandling" covers an awful lot of ground.

True. Please bear in mind that I was writing a newsgroup post (not a book! lol) covering a broader subject ... the breeder and I can only speculate on based on his subsequent behavior and what we know from the owners.

Okay, but it's that very "speculation" that first drew my attention.

I dunno, Tracy. A dog that goes from being a virtual basket-case (when you got him) to "playfully romping and playing" with your kid 24 hours later, suggests to me anyway, that there was more going on here than meets the eye.
Anyway, you've cleared up things for me very nicely, and I appreciate your time.
()
No problemo. I always enjoy your posts, Tracy, so I ... where you were coming from. Thanks for clearing it up!

Thanks for the kind words - I enjoy your posts, too! My original point was that this dog wasn't suitable for protection training,

I think we can certainly agree on that. Emotion: smile
()
Dogs are amazing creatures...

And on that, too!

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to reply via e-mail
Mookie better start to lookie over his shoulder:
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it could turn red. i was born with black hair, it turned blonde, then it turned light red, then it turned dirty blonde. now it's Very Red.

Is it naturally Very Red?

-Abby
Pems, Aussie, and a Pug
*Remove shoes to reply*
I dunno, Tracy. A dog that goes from being a virtualbasket-case (when you got him) to "playfully romping and playing" with yourkid 24 hours later, suggests to me anyway, that there was more goingon here than meets the eye.

Well, y'all on here, the professional trainers, are a lot more experienced than I am.
But I've had dogs come into here like this - always, dogs that had been strays. Some of them were totally freaked out, fearful, had to hide for the evening, and then loosened up within 24-48 hours, without any special effort by me, just ordinary care. Dogs don't enjoy being forced into strange new scary experiences, like happily living with people and being cared for, then suddenly dumped on the road - they go temporarily nuts, IME.

They come here, no magic. But food, water, a Human-In-Charge - these things are familiar, and life is good for the dog again, so they relax and quit being freaked.
I used to think, the first few times, that such dogs had been abused. Well, yeah, they had; being dumped is abuse. But a dog that relaxes in a day or two like that, IMNSHO, has not necessarily been the victim of ongoing abuse or bad training methods. A dog who has a sudden and bad change in living experiences (like being dumped) can become very frightened and take a while to settle down.
flick 100785
Absolutely! But if you read my description of him upon ... the conclusion that no one adapted anything to this dog.

But the list of reasons that could account for a just-rescued "snapping, fear-aggressive wig-out of a dog" is virtually endless.

Jack.. It was only one of a number of things that could have gone wrong with this dog.
I'm still a little unsure why, in the absence of direct evidence, you chose to blame a particular training method for it. But what the heck...no blood, no foul.

See above, please...
She's not easily confused, and will try different behaviors to get rewards, and I've never seen her shut down from a correction.

All the hallmarks of a very good trainer, IMO.

I'd be very reluctant to ever call myself a "good" trainer until I could handle all the problems I were presented with. I can't. I'm an OK handler of average dogs and can probably get more out of average dogs than the average handler, but I don't qualify for the handle of "trainer" in any stretch of the word.
True. Please bear in mind that I was writing a ... his subsequent behavior and what we know from the owners.

Okay, but it's that very "speculation" that first drew my attention.

Not total spec - conclusion based upon owner hints, and as I said, this was only part of the equation.
I dunno, Tracy. A dog that goes from being a virtual basket-case (when you got him) to "playfully romping and playing" with your kid 24 hours later, suggests to me anyway, that there was more going on here than meets the eye.

Absolutely, and I sure wish to hell dogs could talk, so he could tell me what *** him up so. I still have no idea what the owners did wrong, nor what I did right to help bring him around. I WISH I knew!It bugs me half to death.
And on that, too!

Yep.. I adore them and I feel honored to occasionally be allowed to view a litte piece of the world through their eyes. And that only because they let me... :-)
Looking forward to future posts from you, Jack... (you're nowhere near the midwest, are you?)
Tracy
dogsnus said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior: What colour is the mailman's hair?

He's bald.
it could turn red. i was born with black hair, it turned blonde, then it turned light red, then it turned dirty blonde.

I was born with red hair, then it turned brown. Now it's turning pink.

I think she'll probably end up with red hair.There's too much of the gene to ignore on both sides of the family. For awhile,my hair was turning pink,but suddenly it's beginning to get darker red in some areas. Very weird.
I look like a reversed red skunk.
now it's Very Red.

Bottle Red doesn't count.

Not touching that.
Terri
Is it naturally Very Red?

nope, it's Unnaturally Very Red.

shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
Not touching that.

t'ain't no s33krit. when you've got Very Red hair, it's kinda silly to try to pass it off as natural.

shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
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