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I dunno, Tracy. A dog that goes from being a ... there was more going on here than meets the eye.

Well, y'all on here, the professional trainers, are a lot more experienced than I am. But I've had dogs come ... hide for the evening, and then loosened up within 24-48 hours, without any special effort by me, just ordinary care.

Well, that was kinda my point, Flick. Emotion: smile
Dogs don't enjoy being forced into strange new scary experiences, like happily living with people and being cared for, then ... - these things are familiar, and life is good for the dog again, so they relax and quit being freaked.

Yup, it's amazing what just a little TLC, and some decent handling, can accomplish.
I used to think, the first few times, that such dogs had been abused.

Bingo!
That's the very conclusion that way too many rescuers jump to, IMO.

Somehow they must have been starved, beaten, abused, brutalized, etc., to act that way, blah blah blah.
And I think it's mostly a waste of everyone's time. And sometimes it can even lead to a premature death for the dog, because a lot of rescuers will just write-off a dog who behaves like that, thinking that it can't be rehabilitated, or that it would be too much work, etc.
So don't worry about how a dog got to be that way, because you'll almost certainly never know the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God.
Just get on with the dog's rehabilitation.
Start with a blank slate, and then go from there.
Well, yeah, they had; being dumped is abuse. But a dog that relaxes in a day or two like that, IMNSHO, has not necessarily been the victim of ongoing abuse or bad training methods.

Keep going, Flick!
You're making my point a lot better than I apparently was!

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to reply via e-mail
Mookie better start to lookie over his shoulder:
http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200405251028.asp

The Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler Little Green Footballs http://nicedoggie.net / http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog / Glenn Reynolds - InstaPundit Steven Den Beste http://www.instapundit.com / http://www.denbeste.nu / The Belmont Club Dhimmi Watch http://belmontclub.blogspot.com / http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch / Don Luskin Rightwing News http://www.poorandstupid.com/chronicle.asp http://www.rightwingnews.com / Allah is in the house! Victor Davis Hanson-Private Papers http://www.allahpundit.com/ http://victorhanson.com/index.html
But the list of reasons that could account for a just-rescued "snapping, fear-aggressive wig-out of a dog" is virtually endless.

Jack.. It was only one of a number of things that could have gone wrong with this dog.

Absolutely. That's why, IMO, it's mostly a waste of time to try to guess what the reasons might have been.
All the hallmarks of a very good trainer, IMO.

I'd be very reluctant to ever call myself a "good" trainer until I could handle all the problems I were presented with.

I know of no trainer, professional or otherwise, who has never failed.

I sure have.
I can't. I'm an OK handler of average dogs and can probably get more out of average dogs than the average handler, but I don't qualify for the handle of "trainer" in any stretch of the word.

Going solely by your posts here, I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit.
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Okay, but it's that very "speculation" that first drew my attention.

Not total spec - conclusion based upon owner hints, and as I said, this was only part of the equation.

Okay, maybe I missed the other parts of the equation.
I dunno, Tracy. A dog that goes from being a ... there was more going on here than meets the eye.

Absolutely, and I sure wish to hell dogs could talk, so he could tell me what *** him up so. ... wrong, nor what I did right to help bring him around. I WISH I knew!It bugs me half to death.

You probably want to know what you "did right," so that you can do "it" again with the next dog, right?
Well, the next dog will likely come with a totally different set of "baggage," and "it" may not be any help to you at all with that one.

The most important thing, IMO, is to just give the dog some TIME to settle in, and to get him out of the chaos of the shelter environment. Those two things alone will often "cure" an awful lot of "problems."

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And on that, too!

Yep.. I adore them and I feel honored to occasionally be allowed to view a litte piece of the world ... because they let me... :-) Looking forward to future posts from you, Jack... (you're nowhere near the midwest, are you?)

Under direct orders from Tom Ridge and the Department of Homeland Security, I'm not allowed to disclose my exact location.

"They" might be listening in.

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to reply via e-mail
Mookie better start to lookie over his shoulder:
http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200405251028.asp

The Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler Little Green Footballs http://nicedoggie.net / http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog / Glenn Reynolds - InstaPundit Steven Den Beste http://www.instapundit.com / http://www.denbeste.nu / The Belmont Club Dhimmi Watch http://belmontclub.blogspot.com / http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch / Don Luskin Rightwing News http://www.poorandstupid.com/chronicle.asp http://www.rightwingnews.com / Allah is in the house! Victor Davis Hanson-Private Papers http://www.allahpundit.com/ http://victorhanson.com/index.html
That's the very conclusion that way too many rescuers jump to,IMO. Somehow they must have been starved, beaten, abused,brutalized, etc., ... write-off a dog who behaves like that,thinking that it can't be rehabilitated, or that it would be too muchwork, etc.

In all fairness, I too have been guilty of anthropomorphizing dogs. But the fact is that their psychology is not as complex as that of people. One bad thing happens to a child, there may be years of problems ahead.
But for the most part, dogs are quite resilient to one-time bad occurrences, like being dumped on the road. IMNSHO, after a one-time Scary Thing, the dog recovers very quickly once it receives decent, adequate care and handling.
I read in here about play groups, dog parks, and socializing dogs to get along with strange dogs, etc. I'm uncertain about whether or not I agree with that stuff, because a lot of it goes against the nature of dogs as I know it. They aren't toddlers - they're dogs.
Dogs that don't recover quickly probably were abused, and I'm up in the air about whether or not major resources of time and money should be spent "rehabilitating" such dogs, with all the other good ones (i.e., dogs without problems) that are being euthanized. But that's for another thread ;-).
Start with a blank slate, and then go from there.

Yup. I have to, that's for sure; most of the dogs that are here now were found on the road, not owner surrenders, not seized in abuse/neglect cases. I don't have the facilities for dogs with apparent major behavior issues, anyway.
Keep going, Flick! You're making my point a lot better than I apparently was!

LOL!
flick 100785

If you're out to beat a dog, you'll find a stick to beat it with. Yiddish saying.
nope, it's Unnaturally Very Red.

Mine was, too. Now it's Unnaturally Streaked with Red and Blonde. Emotion: smile

-Abby
Pems, Aussie, and a Pug
*Remove shoes to reply*
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And I think it's mostly a waste of everyone's time. ... rehabilitated, or that it would be too much work, etc.

In all fairness, I too have been guilty of anthropomorphizing dogs. But the fact is that their psychology is not as complex as that of people. One bad thing happens to a child, there may be years of problems ahead.

What do you suppose happened to Jerry Howe as a child? Emotion: smile
But for the most part, dogs are quite resilient to one-time bad occurrences, like being dumped on the road. IMNSHO, after a one-time Scary Thing, the dog recovers very quickly once it receives decent, adequate care and handling.

You bet. Most dogs are amazingly resilient.
I read in here about play groups, dog parks, and socializing dogs to get along with strange dogs, etc. I'm ... a lot of it goes against the nature of dogs as I know it. They aren't toddlers - they're dogs.

Have you ever read any of the Bar Harbor studies(Scott & Fuller)? Or about the work of Konrad Lorenz, regarding early imprinting, etc? Eberhard Trumler?
If not, you really should.
Dogs that don't recover quickly probably were abused,

I don't automatically jump to that conclusion, either. Genes play such a big part in a dog's temperament that, unless you know a lot about a specific dog's ancestry, it's virtually impossible to figure out "why" a dog behaves the way it does.
I'd rather spend that time with the dog, starting with a blank slate.

But each rescuer should be free to choose his own way of going about it.
The dog's probably not going to complain, one way or the other.
and I'm up in the air about whether or not major resources of time and money should be spent "rehabilitating" such dogs, with all the other good ones (i.e., dogs without problems) that are being euthanized. But that's for another thread ;-).

We've had that thread, Flick, oh, maybe 234,678 times here already.

I'm just not ready for it again this soon.
My head still hurts from the last time.

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to reply via e-mail
My kind of dame:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13562

The Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler Little Green Footballs http://nicedoggie.net / http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog / Glenn Reynolds - InstaPundit Steven Den Beste http://www.instapundit.com / http://www.denbeste.nu / The Belmont Club Dhimmi Watch http://belmontclub.blogspot.com / http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch / Don Luskin Rightwing News http://www.poorandstupid.com/chronicle.asp http://www.rightwingnews.com / Allah is in the house! Victor Davis Hanson-Private Papers http://www.allahpundit.com/ http://victorhanson.com/index.html
What do you suppose happened to Jerry Howe as a child? Emotion: smile

I shudder to think...
Have you ever read any of the Bar Harbor studies(Scott &Fuller)? Or about the work of Konrad Lorenz, regarding early imprinting,etc? Eberhard Trumler? If not, you really should.

Only some of Lorenz, quite a while ago. Thanks for the heads-up on the other stuff.
flick: Dogs that don't recover quickly probably ****,

I don't automatically jump to that conclusion, either. Genesplay such a big part in a dog's temperament that, unless you know alot about a specific dog's ancestry, it's virtually impossible tofigure out "why" a dog behaves the way it does.

One of the things I find most fascinating about dogs is their breed-specific behavior.
I'd rather spend that time with the dog, starting with a blankslate. But each rescuer should be free to choose his own way of goingabout it. The dog's probably not going to complain, one way or the other.

Re no complaints, you got that right ;-).
flick 100785
Somehow they must have been starved, beaten, abused, brutalized, etc., to act that way, blah blah blah.

This isn't entirely related to the thread, but this was the funniest "abuse" story I ever heard. This groomer I was helping was bathing a Westie, and said Westie was trying to eat the spray from the hose. She knowingly looks at me and says, "Poor guy, I bet he was abused with a hose. Probably neighborhood kids." Um, sure.

-Abby
Pems, Aussie, and a Pug
*Remove shoes to reply*
Dogs that don't recover quickly probably were abused,

I disagree. I see so many dogs with weak genetic temperament that has nothing at all to do with their experiences. They will always be limited by that temperament regardless of what we do. All you can really do is manage them so that they live in a safe situation that is within their capabilities.
Lynn K.
But for the most part, dogs are quite resilient to one-time bad occurrences, like being dumped on the road. IMNSHO, after a one-time Scary Thing, the dog recovers very quickly once it receives decent, adequate care and handling.

Just as a data point... I've owned two dogs who were dumped. One was terrified of riding in cars for a short period, but got over it quickly. The other- Brenin- has NEVER forgotten that his first owners abandoned him. I don't have time to go into full details at the moment, but there have been many, many times that he has gotten upset because certain circumstances remind him of that one-time traumatic event.