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Just because they are not exactly sterling breeders,

My take on it is this. Others have given much the same advice WRT training without being puppy peddlers. Why reward crappy breeding practices (which you do, whether you buy their book or buy their puppy) when you don't have to?
Suja
My take on it is this. Others have given much the same advice WRT training without being puppy peddlers. Why reward crappy breeding practices (which you do, whether you buy their book or buy their puppy) when you don't have to?

yeah. The first NS GSD I knew was a lovely dog. That was years ago though. The next one same couple got? Many screws loose and at a high cost to boot.

Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Good books. And they don't do the Alpha roll in ... good stuff. Why throw the baby out with the bathwater?

The question for me is how they frame the interaction between dog and owner, and while it's true that pack ... Janet thinks the book is groovy and that she seems to rely on punishment to teach her dog new things.

Wow, that's a statement of unmitigated bitchery.You and Diddy can go ahead and pursue your private war, but leave me out of it. I'm not interested in becoming collateral damage.I don't rely on punishment at all. I can't recall punishing a dog. I've got GOLDENS for chrissake. Anyone who relied on punishment with a golden would end up with a quivering mess instead of the calm, friendly confident, well-behaved dog I've got. (The other one is a work in progress.)In the situation at hand I suggested calmly taking the dog to a new room on a leash, and then treating and rewarding it. In what way is that "punishment"? (If so, I guess Janet B must "realy on punishment" too, since she suggested the same thing.) With the rescue, I am introducing the dog to the world in a controlled and safe manner by taking her for walks on a leash.

If she is startled by a passing noise, I'm not going to allow her to simply bolt senselessly, with me running on the end of the leash, or let her strangle and fight at the end of the leash while I walk deliberately along. If that's YOUR idea of how to work with a fearful dog, I hope you never take one on. (Since when is putting a dog in a temporary sit in heel position "punishment"? Hello?)
Lastly, as I said, I don't recall everything in the book in great detail, but I do not have any recollection at all of the focus of the book being this domination-driven hell you describe. I do recall their suggesting a regular schedule accompanied by crate training, suggesting the puppy be encouraged to be quiet in the house and play outdoors, sleep in your room, etc. All of which I consider to be good advice.
Yes, we have kids, and yes, it was a pretty miserable couple of years for my husband as he has trouble sleeping at the best of times. But the pets are all my idea and my responsibility.

I've always been a light sleeper and normally couldn't return to sleep after being woken at 2am (it was always 2am) by puppy Rocky.
He's no longer a puppy and I'm still a light sleeper, but he taught me to be able to get back to sleep - something that stood me in good stead when he started a pattern seizing in the middle of the night.
Your husband will learn to deal with it.
On the other hand, we seem to have a philosophical difference here between members of the group. If I'm supposed to set an alarm, get him out on a schedule, and ignore his whining, then what is the point of him being in the room?

Use the alarm if you're forced to keep your puppy out of the bedroom. Otherwise, you shouldn't need it.
Wouldn't paying attention to him, and even putting my fingers through the crate be reinforcing the behavior?

Relaxing him with your presence isn't reinforcing the behaviour, it's bonding, and you're missing a critical part of it by segregating him at this stage.

Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
She didn't read it. She thinks anything associated with Monkes ... one single method that was controversial, the rest is EXCELLENT.

i'm with Suja on this one. i don't have to read the book to know that i don't want to financially support an irresponsible breeder.

I bought the book something like 7 or 8 years ago (and have since given it away). I didn't know anything negative about their breeding practices, and in fact have never heard anything at all about it until just now, when several people have described them as puppy millers. For the record, if I had had information that they were puppy millers back then, I wouldn't have bought the book either.
I don't rely on punishment at all.

From your posts, you rely very heavily on punishment and correction, whether it's holding a nipping puppy's mouth shut or pulling on a dog that doesn't want to go forward. This is "punishment" in its behavioral sense. While you may not care about behavior as behavior, it's nearly impossible to really talk about training without at least an elementary understanding of the difference between things that are likely to encourage behaviors and things that are likely to discourage behaviors.
Two good books on this are Burch & Bailey's "How Dogs Learn" and Reid's "Excel-erated Learning."

Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed)

Average real weekly wages are lower today than they were at the end of the 2001 recession.
pulling on a dog that doesn't want to go forward.

I know this post was directed at the "other" Janet, but I want to clarify. I am trying to do as little "pulling" as possible. Basically, I am next to the dog and moving with the speed of light, so s/he doesn't have time to put on the brakes. I agree that a tug-of-war situation is not a good one.

Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
I don't rely on punishment at all.

From your posts, you rely very heavily on punishment and correction, whether it's holding a nipping puppy's mouth shut or pulling on a dog that doesn't want to go forward.

I think that you have an inaccurate impression of what each of these things consists of.
In the case of the dog on lead, I'm not talking about dragging a dog forward with its feet braced against the floor or anything even faintly close to it. I'm not talking about dragging a protesting dog. I'm not even talking about "pulling on" a dog. I'm talking about simply walking forward with a cheery invitation to come along, and continuing to walk and say "come along" if the dog pauses or *hesitates,* at which point the dog comes along too. If the dog actually comes to a real halt, I'm not going to pull them down the hall or whatever. Even in your terms, this can hardly be described as "punishment."
On the nipping thing, I'm talking about very, very gently and very, very briefly holding the puppy's muzzle and saying "no bite." I would agree that this is closer to something you could call "punishment," but I think that to describe it as such is to grossly exaggerate it.
If I rely "very heavily" on anything, it's treats and praise.
Basically, I am next to the dog and moving with the speed of light, so s/he doesn't have time to put on the brakes.

Right, bingo. But I have had a dog (er, dogs) try to park it anyway, and in those cases I announce my intention and make an immediate turn, usually left (towards the dog, which tends to make them move away from you, particularly if you're moving fast, where the operative word is "move") (BTW, other Janet, that's punishment).
I give verbal steering commands when I walk my dogs, simply because I want them to have good steering. I do think that it makes it less imperative that the dog watch you, but that's okay for our particular priorities. One of my hopes is that we can do well in lead dog challenges.

Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed)

Average real weekly wages are lower today than they were at the end of the 2001 recession.
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