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NEVER?? Are you serious? You've never seen a dog run up a teeter and launch?

I've seen plenty of those, though none that I can attribute to the dog thinking the teeter was a dogwalk.

When the dog never slows on the ramp up and heads out to space, only to get this "oh, shoot" look as they are haning in mid-air? I understand the ones that are trying to do it too fast and fly towards the next obstacle is not tetter confusion, but when a dog clearly wasn't expecting the tetter to drop, I attribute that to mixing them up. Much as when I see a dog pause on the up ramp of the dogwalk about 2/3, they are confusing the ogwalk with the tetter and expecting a drop.

Melissa S. Frye
Skyrocket cockers www.mfrye.com/skyrocket/
In my experience, it has a lot to do with the handler. When Bodhi wouldshut down, it was mostly in ... a very difficult thing to overcome, at least in mycase, so hopefully that isn't part of the equation with Spencer.[/nq]Spenser acted the same both in practice and trials. I have talked with a lot of people who have schnauzers and they say they all do the same thing. They just hate to be wrong. Practice and trials. Non-agility things. If they think they did it wrong, they don't want anything to with that thing again. What I'm trying to do is keep a happy voice and practice repeating obstacles - starting with the ones he really likes to do - so he doesn't think "mistake" when one happens.

Not just the "offending" obstacle but a circle sequence to go back to it from the one before it. In practice, not in trials. In trials, I just make sure there are a lot of "good dogs" when I call him back to me and we go on happy. He still will start to shut down but I'm better at getting him back.
The time Spenser did it to me after MY handling error on the tunnel, we were to go smack into the weaves next. He ran right past. I figure he was saying "well, if I can't even do the tunnel right, what chance is there for the weaves?". We skipped them and went on and the second half of the run was joyful - and perfect.
I'm sure I was a major part of the equation when he'd shut down. Not so much in my reaction to the initial mistake as to my reaction to his behavior after. That's probably an easier thing to change than the initial and immediate "oh crap". There's a second or so longer to choose how to react.
Are you sure these are Schnauzers and not Shelties!?! The standards in my classes are not particularly soft. Do they get softeras they get smaller?

There may be something to that - the miniatures were bred down from the standards partly to make them a family dog. Most likely some poodle and affenpinscher in there - are they sensitive breeds?

However, the people I know who have standards say they are just as bad - if not worse. They may not show it as much. And they may not be willing to adjust their behavior just because you don't like it - they may still think that they know best. So if you get harsh, they may just get more set in their ways. They require a lifelong commitment to training - because they are always thinking and checking. With the right trainer, they can be incredible. If someone ever offers me one, I'll be hard pressed to refuse. But I'm glad I'm practicing on the miniatures first. Standards are smart, willful dogs. I'm told they are both stoic and sensitive.

And the first person I talked with who suggested the "hate to be wrong" concept was a standard owner. When she explained it to me, a lightbulb went off. We're still working on it but Spenser got two Qs last weekend and the first one required a couple of callbacks that would have been a problem last year. (The second one went exactly as I had walked it, outside of a delay in his table "down"). So for now, what we're doing seems to be helping.
~~Judy
Spenser - Carbor Talk of the Town, NA
Sassy - Can CH Carbor Back Talk
I have had them with bases about 10 feet apart (this is legal in AKC) sprayed out like hands on a clock say the dogwalk being at 12:00 and the teeter being at 2:00 in angle. It's a perfectly legitimate challenge in AKC.

Come to think of it, I've seen angled discriminations like that in NADAC. Not often, and generally with more creative judges like John Raymond, but I've seen them.
Instead, if he is heading off some other direction than you want, simply shut up. If at all possible, shut up and turn your back, let him come find you. When he does, big, big praise and try again.

That's basically what I do with my guys, especially Rocsi... well, I should say I TRY to do. Sometimes the call-off comes out of my mouth anyway. Rocsi has started really seeking obstacles- which is great, and earned her Open Gamblers title last weekend- but the downside is that she occasionally spots a good line and just takes off.
I don't want to discourage the obstacle-seeking, so I usually just hold my position, wait for her to go "Oops! Where's Mam?", then as Robin suggests I praise like crazy and go on from where we were.
However, the people I know who have standards say they are just as bad - if not worse. They may ... glad I'm practicing on the miniatures first. Standards are smart, willful dogs. I'm told they are both stoic and sensitive.

Standards are Working dogs which is why they're in the Working group. I have seen several trial and I know one well. Most of them tend to be somewhat soft and no, they don't like being wrong. But I'll say that Seasar, the one I actually teach, is a super dog very high drive and adores agility. Seasar happens to be Ch Scarlight's Seasar, TD, NA, who has won BOB at Westminster the past two years and has also been #1 Standard Schnauzer for well over a year. We've convinced his owner/handler that he wants to do more agility, so after getting his NA at a young age before weaves were required, he's back in training, and also working toward a TDX. Super cool dog.
Instead, if he is heading off some other direction than ... you. When he does, big, big praise and try again.

That's basically what I do with my guys, especially Rocsi... well, I should say I TRY to do. Sometimes the ... to go "Oops! Where's Mam?", then as Robin suggests I praise like crazy and go on from where we were.

Heh. Cala will occasionally do this, she'll spot a line and just take it. Funny though, while I'm standing there waiting for her to notice that I'm not with her, if I look at my feet, they're almost always pointed right where she went! The occasional exception is left turns Cala is left footed and loves taking left turns, so occasionally I'll signal for her to go right and she'll go left anyway, just because she wants to.
I'm just so thrilled to have a dog that will work away from me that I'm not sweating it. At this point I'm far more interested in a truly fast dog that occasionally takes a wild hair than in shutting her down to get what I want. I figure I'm allowed to actually have and run a true Novice dog which is why we still just have one Jumpers leg. My bet is it'll be another year before we're truly competitive in the sense of running both fast and clean.
It doesn't even take a "no" to shut him down. He would do it if he has to go back and do an obstacle that he went past or missed for whatever reason.

Why does he HAVE to go back? One of the most valuable things Debi taught me as a beginner was to NOT FIX things like that with a green or easily demotivated dog- just keep working the course.
If you really want to go back and retry a part of the course - which you can do in NADAC- swing the dog back in a circle so the flow doesn't stop.
And Sassy is even more sensitive. A harsh word to her - a "down" thatgets repeated with a little edge of frustration - and she shuts down.

OOh, BTDT!
You probably didn't see my post in the other thread, so I'll repeat that I cost Morag a Q on Sunday that way.
It was a Regular course which started with one jump to a very close tunnel/dw discrimination; she got the DW (correct obstacle) but trotted over it slowly and did the next three jumps in such a mopey fashion that I thought she was feeling sick or had somehow hurt herself. I stopped and asked her if she was OK; she came over, I gave her a reassuring fur-ruffle, she perked right up and flew through the rest of the course with style. Of course, we were NQ'd because I touched her. Afterwards, I replayed my mental tape of the run, and realized that I'd inadvertently used a very harsh tone for the "Here!" to the DW, and that it had shut her down.
Standards are Working dogs which is why they're in the Working group. I have seen several trial and I know one ... a young age before weaves were required, he's back in training, and also working toward a TDX. Super cool dog.

The ones I know (and their relatives that I know of) are all at high levels of competitons. (And I see now they are letting them try herding?) Not only in obedience and agility but as SAR and Earthquake Rescue dogs. Bred right, handled right, these are just incredible dogs.

But everyone involved with them is always very clear that they are High Commitment dogs. A miniature schnauzer owner should not make the mistake of thinking the only difference is in size - they are a very different breed. As you say, they are classified as Working Dogs.
But aren't the miniatures also in that group in Europe? While they have that terrier attitude and were bred for similar tasks, they in truth probably have no terrier blood in them.

~~Judy
Spenser - Carbor Talk of the Town, NA
Sassy - Can CH Carbor Back Talk
It doesn't even take a "no" to shut him down. ... obstacle that he went past or missed for whatever reason.

Why does he HAVE to go back? One of the most valuable things Debi taught me as a beginner was to NOT FIX things like that with a green or easily demotivated dog-

Boy oh boy do I ever wish I could get that into the beginning/slash novice trainers head where I am a member. That has been the biggest demotivator in not only me but in Clovis. She definitely shuts down. Makes me wonder about starting Reznor on June 21. If I don't think it is going well, I am making
the drive to the guy in the know, no matter how far. I have heard too many rave reviews and these are from people who have never trialed. Another thing I find more appealing about him is it isn't a club, and you pay by the week/attendance. The club is always asking for so much volunteer stuff. Of course that is too be expected and I am not saying they shouldn't but with so many other things to do I feel guilty when I can't donate my time like so many members do.
Gwen
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