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How many running contacts have you trained?

Taught, several. Trained personally, none. Seen in competition with small dogs? In this area about 80-90% of small dogs I see have some sort of running contact, in that they don't come to a stop on the contact and stride easily through it.

How many small dog classes are you watching? I do all the time and I don't see this.
Most dogs have a stop or break stride inot a trot and are released. Very few 12" dogs have a running contact.
Almost no 16" have a runnign contact. Most of the 8" do though and often it does take little traiing with a dog that small if they aren't terribly driven.
Trust me it is a hell of a lot harder than training a reliable fast2o/2o.

For your dogs perhaps. But there are some dogs out there that it comes very naturally to. I've talked to ... of intense contact training at all, and whose dogs always just hit it. And yes, their dogs do canter across.

With Corgis and 8" dogs you can get away with that. I don't know anyone in the 12" who hasn't spent los of time training their runnings. At least with any degree of reliablity (> 85%). I do know people with running contacts who fall in the 75% or less range, but that's crazy.
I'm not going to dispute that. I'm only going to say that the vast majority of people I know aren't ... Qs, and it's easier to Q from the 12 and 16 inch classes than it is from the 24" class.

Oh getting a slow contact (i.e trotting and release) is easy, but that's not a running contact.
Gunny has that contact with almost never missed and can still make time, but I have seen big dogs that Q with the same type of contacts. It's always easier to Q with a moderate speed dog than with a fast dog in any height class.
Fast dogs are always harder - but I am a speed junkie, and love a fast NQ better than a slow Q, so I don't choose to go that route.
True - but you spend time teaching the dog to fully extend instead of teaching collection.

But think of it with your beezer knowing that you can never really showcase her speed because she can't run her fastest speed no matter what you do.

So? I don't get why the fact that she can't run the full course extended is a problem. There are sections on every course I have seen that she can extend on. Dice is a naturally tight dog and we would be more competetive if more of the course had to be run collected. So? Means I need to train different things.
Well not all us big dog people have good stops on contacts either, and we have to practice it too, only for our dogs, that tempting tunnel is 2 strides away instead of 5 or 7.

Yeah but not having a good stop on a contact is a training issue, not a function of course or dog size.
Ever seen the sheltie bounce? They stop right above the dogwalk yellow and jump over it...
Avoidanc eof the stress point.
Yeah, see my post about people who move into my height class from lower classes. You'll find that too with the Beezer. Try losing your multipliers to a dog that doesn't even belong in your height.

Actuall I am pretty sure I have but I hadn't thought about to be honest - Kizzi could have placed higher if we had been faster was my train of thought. And I could tell you where we were slow on the course.
Definitely slower than the 20. Probably at least a bit slower than the 24, though all things being equal, I bet they're pretty similar.

I don't know - I do see more unmotivated dogs in 24" which might skew the numbers. (I think it's that they are ask to do more physically h/w ratios...)
I don't think BCs are big dogs. To me, a big dog is a dog running in the 24" class, a dog that weighs 50 pounds or more. That lets out almost all the BCs.

And my 24" dogs. This definition amuses me greatly. I think that 12" non-shelties, 12" non-JRT that are fast are the only real small dogs. All the rest aren't real small dogs because they don't have the problems we have.
We can certainly agree there. Yet there have been more small dogs (Moso, now Tigger, and of course the Shelties) on World Teams than there have ever been true big dogs.

Umm, huh? Of course because of the mini-height cut-off. the paps that run aren't tiny Paps.
The cut-off is 13.75" - so you are going to get small dogs because dogs can't be over the cut-off.
Most WT dogs are close to it.
In the past few years there have been none. The fastest Doberman in the U.S. averages 5.5 yps in JWW. ... that. There are very few true big dogs who can make anywhere near 6 yps Breezy the Giant Schnauzer being one.

Look at the YPS cut-offs for WT - they are different for big versus small dogs.
While my dogs can make the top 5 times or so if you look at all heights in standard (thanks to running contacts), there is always more difference in jumpers - the big dogs bouncing jumps have an advantage over us.

Breezy is a clear example to me that it is the trainer as much as the dog. Ginsey got everything out of Breezy she could.
She won challengers at Nationals for gosh sakes. But 95% of handlers don't come anywhere close to getting that much out of their dogs. FYI - her cocker Coup is expecting puppies by my Hunter next week...
How much does Rum weigh by the way? Just curious. I do hope she's world class competitive, that would be cool to see.

Don't worry, Rum isn't a big dog by your definition - she is 30 lbs at the moment, probably 40 lbs when she fills out - she is bone thin right now again.
I don't care if she is WT material (I would not want to put the time and energy in to get to that level with her), I want a dog that regularly places/wins in good competetin in EXCB 24". Since the 24" is less competitve than the 20", there is a big difference between that and WT competetive dogs around here.
I want a "Gosh wow" dog, and she is certainly showing potential.

Melissa S. Frye
Skyrocket cockers www.mfrye.com/skyrocket/
My bet is Rum will simply not be able to get anywhere close to her flat ground speed due to a huge stride.

I don't get how this "disadvantages" her. On the average course she still will take fewer strides than Dice, because Dice is smaller. Just because she may have to run a larger secion of the course collected.

Well it depends, but what yps does Dice go? Like I say, very few true big dogs can even begin to make 6 yps, and smaller dogs can often enough to regularly make the World Team.
Even though she isn't a "big" dog by your definition and she is running in the 24"? Doesn't that give us an unfair advantage? What about all those big border collies?

No, because she belongs there by definition. You haven't moved her up to get a jumping advantage. Semantics, but that's the way I feel about it.
If you want to make it really fair, you should suggest a height/weight ratio be the basis for jump heights.

Nah. But I would like dogs to stay at the height they are at, and I do think that if you say the dog can't move down, you should say the dog can't move up. Rum belongs right where she is!
I don't like the 5' A-frame - sorry it's moving toward boards on the ground. I do like 24" weaves as do my dogs.

I don't think the 5' is moving towards boards on the ground, and I wouldn't want it to be any shorter than that, but the 5 foot would give just enough of a better angle to help the tiny dogs and keep some of the bigger dogs from slamming their shoulder so hard.
But I guess I look at my dogs and know that minor rule changes (kicking the 20" dogs out of ... bitching about how unfair this or that is on the internet, and it just seems such a waste of energy...

But have you lost something like 100 MACH points in the last year because someone moved a dog up? I have. If multipliers weren't affected I really wouldn't care at all. But they are. It's funny, but people always resort to the "you're just whining" argument. It's not whining. It's discussing and hashing things out, it's doing thinking on screen, and it's some suggestions that might make the sport better. You saying that poles should be 24" is somehow not whining while me saying that dogs shouldn't move up is? Sorry, I don't agree.
My point is simply if dogs are allowed to move up freely, they should be allowed to move down freely. If you can't move down because that gives you an advantage, then you shouldn't be able to move up either, because that too can give you an advantage. It's as simple as that.
How many small dog classes are you watching? I do all the time and I don't see this.

A lot. I sit, all day, and watch agility when I go. I don't read or wander off outside for hours or go shopping, I watch.
Most dogs have a stop or break stride inot a trot and are released. Very few 12" dogs have a running contact.

They don't have what YOU call a running contact, which is running absolutely full speed through. But they don't have a stop. This is an issue of semantics. I call everything that isn't a stop a running contact. The ones you do I call a true running contact. But for me if it's not a stop, it's a "running." There are no dictionaries in agility so we all do the best we can.
With Corgis and 8" dogs you can get away with that. I don't know anyone in the 12" who hasn't spent los of time training their runnings.

But see, here's where you and I keep having a communication breakdown. I'm talking all competitors. You're talking only people with ballistically fast dogs. There's a big difference there. In some cases you talk about the entire class of the dogs, but then you will talk only about the ballistically fast dogs as if it represented the entire class, which just isn't true.
Oh getting a slow contact (i.e trotting and release) is easy, but that's not a running contact.

Not by YOUR definition. It is by mine.
I don't think BCs are big dogs. To me, a ... pounds or more. That lets out almost all the BCs.

And my 24" dogs. This definition amuses me greatly. I think that 12" non-shelties, 12" non-JRT that are fast are the only real small dogs. All the rest aren't real small dogs because they don't have the problems we have.[/nq]I've often talked about true big dogs. Rum isn't one. Not that she doesn't belong in the 24" class, but she's not a true big dog. These dogs do have PHYSICAL differences that make some things more difficult for them. You talk about 24" weave poles. Picture Rum going through 18-20" spacing, at her 30 pounds. I will assume she's got a very narrow chest and lots of leg for her size. That makes it awkward, but she still doesn't have to place as much lateral stress on her shoulders to displace the poles as a dog who is a foot or more across at the chest and weighs 70+ pounds.

So for me, labs, though they often run 20", are true big dogs. Goldens, many Weims, Dobes, labs, Rotts, etc. It's a physical description and one that is very pertinent to agility discussions involving issues which are affected by physical differences.

Your comparison of JRTs/Shelties is faulty because it is based on speed, not on physical structure. If you wanted to separate the corgis into a category on their own I'd agree with that, because their physical structure is different than many other 12" dogs.
We can certainly agree there. Yet there have been more ... World Teams than there have ever been true big dogs.

Umm, huh? Of course because of the mini-height cut-off. the paps that run aren't tiny Paps. The cut-off is 13.75" - so you are going to get small dogs because dogs can't be over the cut-off. Most WT dogs are close to it.

I'm beginning to think you are deliberatly trying to twist my words. My point is that yes, little dogs do well. But in the big dog category you never see dogs who are, by my definition, true big dogs. There are lots of little dogs going 6+ yps. Extremely few true big dogs can do it.
Look at the YPS cut-offs for WT - they are different for big versus small dogs.

What does that have to do with the fact that there are no dobermans in the U.S. who can even make 6 yps? Or that other than at the very beginning, none of the dogs on the Maxi team are true big dogs? Or that the number of true big dogs in the U.S. who can make 6 yps can be counted on the fingers of one hand?
I think we're just talking around each other so I'll let it go. I tend to think of myself as a fairly clear writer, but you don't seem to be understanding my position at all, because you keep writing tangents to it instead of addressing it. So I'll let it go.
I keep hearing that, and I've even parroted it. But ... anybody who says that has never run a big dog.

And you have run how many small dogs? I have run a big dog - although I am sure you ... seen courseswhere it's easier to run a big dog. Of course some of this depends on what your goals are.[/nq]Even though I am nothing more than a novice, I have trained three dogs (two mine) - and its more than size when it comes to AKC style courses. I can use my dogs as an example: Kavik is a stout, chesty, muscled dog bred to run in straight lines for long distances. Toklat is a much slimmer, more agile dog (you can't tell through the fat fur, but he is skinny and slender and small boned). Turning Kavik tightly is much more difficult. I got in to an argument on the samoyed list where someone claimed that samoyeds were capable of being as fast as BC's in agility - apparently because they also herd (samoyed herding doesnt' look much like BC herding) they have the capability, but its because I haven't taught my dog to turn tightly enough.

So, although I know my dog can't turn like a BC, I spent six weeks doing intensive "teach Kavik to turn tighter" training. I can say that his turns have improved, but certainly he can't turn on a dime like a bc, or even like Toklat can.Smaller dogs, having more time in between obstacles, also are easier to turn in tight spaces. I train and compete with a friend who has a tiny, fast dog. They started about the same time that I did and they aren't a particularly good team, perhaps slightly worse than Kavik and I are - we practice alot more and I have assisted in agility classes and been to more seminars, etc and so my skills are slightly more slick than hers are.

Both dogs are relatively fast dogs, and at one time there was an discussion about smaller dogs being easier to manage - she claimed because her dog was so fast that it wasnt' valid. So we tested -in a straightaway Kavik beats her dog every time, on a course? It depends on the course and the turns. Is it scientific ? Hell no, but I think there is a grain of truth there - some dogs can turn faster than other dogs.
I won't say where I was or who the judge is, though yes, I may (or may not) answer privately if asked depends on who does the asking. I will say that these are the kinds of courses I do NOT like, especially for big dogs.

Karen Winter, I'm betting, at the St Louis trial.
She was the judge for the agility trial at the AmStaff nationals. I don't know why they keep asking her back. Almost NO ONE at that show qualifies on her courses.
EmilyS
I won't say where I was or who the judge ... of courses I do NOT like, especially for big dogs.

Karen Winter, I'm betting, at the St Louis trial. She was the judge for the agility trial at the AmStaff nationals. I don't know why they keep asking her back. Almost NO ONE at that show qualifies on her courses.

Bzzzt. Wrong.
Actually, I can do Karen's courses. They've gotten better. She now only has a few that I really think are ugly, most are okay and some are downright fun. Ditto Keith Harold, who started out a nighmare but has turned into a pretty darn good course builder.
This judge was not from our direct area.