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@ig.utexas.edu:

I know you have said that most judges won't place ... wasn't the way I understood it when you posted that.

I don't think I said "most." If I did, I was wrong, and meant to say "many."

And I'd say "some" not many. I see more judges who will place puppies than who won't. And I have a big handler breed. We have Dobes who are finishing at 8 and 9 months. Interestingly enough, most (not all, but most) do go on and do well as older adults, at least conformation wise.
I agree with everything you've said. For the record, I do not disapprove of showing dogs nor do I dismiss a dog's champion title as mere fluff. I think my original wording is at fault here. As I've said in other posts, conformance is a part of the total makeup (I've never disputed that) but I don't necessarily include conformance to be highly important in what I consider to be the overall rightness of a dog. I tried to continually say "for me" because that's also important to understanding what I'm saying.

I think of the dog as a whole package and aesthetics & structure are really last on my list with temperament being primary for "rightness" (because we have to live with these dogs and they should have the correct temperament for their breed, as outlined in the standard). Breed/personality traits being second, the dog should perform & behave the way the breed is expected to. Health being third (you have to admit that AKC conformation titles don't tell you if the dog has a heart condition, poor hip rating, or cancer is prevelant in its lines).

None of that means that meeting the standard in regards to appearance and structure aren't also important, *I* just don't find them to be primary players in the overall package (please note that I'm not talking about a Boxer who looks like a RR).Think about how many byb advertise champion bloodlines as a selling point and how many people fall for it. People seem to think that champion means the dog is the embodiment of perfect or very close to. Well it may be perfect in terms of structure, size, coat, gait, but it doesn't tell you whether or not the dog's temperament, personality and instincts are perfect. That is pretty much the point I was making. I would, and have, make the same point wrt field & working titles.

They tell you how good the dog's instincts are, for its breed, and obviously there must be a good deal of biddability to train to that level, but there's not much else it tells you overall (certainly not whether the dog meets conformation requirements set forth by the breed standard). I see the argument here all the time with working dogs vs. AKC or conformance dogs. They can work but they don't often look as pretty as their show dog counterpart and vice versa.

We just simply weren't comparing conformance to anything else here which is why I didn't make any distinctions. In a perfect world, I think a Champion title should mean a dog met all the expectations for their breed. IE a conformationally correct, proven retriever, with a proven correct temperament and preferably with proven genetic-free defects Labrador Retriever. Or switch retrieving to herding and the breed name to BC. It would have to meet all requirements in order to be called Champion.

Of course that would mean a ton of trials/tests to come together to form a whole result. I think its an interesting concept anyway.

Tara
BTW, does anyone on this NG know of anyone that owns or has owned this breed? http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/breedinformation/working/komdor.html

I think they're beautiful dogs and would love to have one as a neighbor (that way I don't have to do any of the grooming).

Tara
How do you brush these dogs? How to shampoo them. I am very curious.

I don't believe you do brush them, but you have to continually split the cords. I've heard that it takes at least a whole day (or two?) to dry one after a bath.

I didn't get Gwen's OP so I'm not sure if you are talking Kommodors or Pulis.
Back in '91, I was showing Zeffie at the big show in Trenton NJ. We had a collie specialty going on and in the next ring the Kommodors Nationals were being held. As I understand it, about 12 or so had been flown in from Hungary for the Nationals. Over in the old country, the rule was to never ever bathe them even though the cords drug the ground or a cord got peed or pooped on. It was a breezy day and thankfully most the time we were up-wind. To use the apt words of my great Uncle Fritz, the smell of a few of those dogs could knock a buzzard off a *** wagon.

I read one funny article about bathing Puli's in the AKC gazette long ago. The writer wrote that it helps if the cords can soak a bit to get clean and fortunately once a Puli is in the tub and in water, his waterlogged cords are so heavy he's pretty much anchored to the spot. She wrote that you don't scrub but instead squeeze shampoo into and out of the cords and rinse rinse rinse forever. Drying is a big deal and takes hours. It's important to get them completely dry, especially in humid climates since damp dogs get mildewed cords.
Chris and her wash 'n wear smoothie and one goofy visiting pup, Pablo and Lilo
It's not unheard of for Basenjis to finish at a year or even less, andthey often finish sometime around their ... you go back to look at them as 3 or 4 year olds you wonder how they ever did it.

Oh this can be a problem in collies as well - especially in the males. A male that is perfect at 7-11 months can be way overdone and coarse when he is an adult. Last year I was showing Pablo up at Syracuse at a obedience trial. There was another smoothie entered in Rally - a male the same age as Pablo. I was frankly a bit horrified to learn that he was a champion - finished as a puppy. Put him and Pablo side by side and they looked like two different breeds. On one side a heavy, cloddy draft horse smooth collie and on the other, a lithe thoroughbred smoothie (Pablo!).

Pablo is like his sire, Dar. While pups, they were nice but a bit "raw" however they both matured to look just as a collie should - light on their feet, medium bone, yet elegant. Dar finished as a young adult but came into his own as he matured. He really burned up the specials ring when he was 6 &
7 (lots of group placements, one BIS and even 3rd in group at Westminster in'95).
Chris and her smoothie and one visiting pup,
Pablo and Lilo
"Fitness and rightness" also must follow one critical thing. Form follows function. If a dog does not have the correct ... breed type if he does not look and move like the breed should, he is a poor representation of the breed.

That's true in theory, but the reality is that fashions in the breed ring don't always honor the requirements for working breeds. Certainly among Siberians, the trend towards short-legged, long-backed dogs produces dogs that can't pull "a light load at a moderate speed over great distances." There are some Siberians that both mush and show in the conformation ring, but the ones that are serious about both I can count on a subset of the fingers of one hand. The breed ring may not be the best place to evaluate working conformation.

Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed)

There are 700,000 fewer jobs now than when the
recession "ended" in 2001.
That Newf is awesome! And I'm hoping Bunny will be present tonight. What a gorgeous girl she is.

Bunny is my choice as well...

I loved Bunny but there was no mistaking that beautiful Newf, Josh. He deserved BIS and he got it.
And of course I was pulling, screaming and cheering for "Kevin". I was so thrilled Kevin had beat
Sammy Sosa and was the Pembroke chosen.
And then getting 1st place in the herding group.
Well he is an awesome dog. I knew he wouldn't
get picked and personally comparing him to
Josh and or Bunny I don't think he should have.
None the less what an awesome, expressive,
little corgi he is.
Gwen
Chances are the GSD, Corgi or that darned OES will do very well, but I can always hope!

That Corgi is a very nice, typy Corgi. I love him! The GSD I could do without, mostly because the handler is a total jackass.

For a show shepherd, she's lovely. He *is* a nice Corgi, he took group (maybe BIS, I can't remember) in Portland last month on the televised night. Which was pretty cool, since a friend's BSD went group 3, and the Terv (that was BOS at WKC) went group 4. From what I saw, he is very typey, full of ring attitude and just a lover out of the ring.
Shelly & The Boys
How do you brush these dogs? How to shampoo them. I am very curious.

I don't believe you do brush them, but you have to continually split the cords. I've heard that it takes ... from this account! So there... "You have no power here! ...Be gone! Before somebody drops a house on you too!"

One of my trainers says she knows someone and often it takes several days to dry one.
I couldn't imagine having a dog like that.
Gwen
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