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I just cannot get Kanook to listen to me well enough in those distracting situations when he want to run ... but choses to ignore them in these circumstances, it was my thought that the training collar would be used then.

That would be an appropriate use for the collar. Again - I know I keep saying this, but it's so important I feel that I should stress it every time - you would need to train him to what the collar means BEFORE you used it on the trail.
I used an e-collar to reinforce and refine recall with my Jack Russell under similar circumstances- with her, it's not people or dogs, but prey. She'll get so focused on something that's down a hole or up a tree that she'll choose to ignore me, and sometimes literally doesn't hear me- the e-collar gave me a way to get her attention at a distance. I specifically trained her that the collar tap is a signal which means "come", btw- and I don't use it for anything else.
Getting back to your dog:
Once he's trained to the collar, and you start using it on the trails, IMO what you'd want to do would be to monitor him closely, and call him - using the collar to reinforce it if need be- BEFORE he really gets locked on to the other person or dog.
IOW, you want to catch him in the moment when he's first noticing them and thinking about running up, not wait until he's running at them or already there- then immediately praise and reward him for responding.

I had a serious problem with my BC mix running up to people when I first got her; in her case, what worked was training a conditioned response of turning towards me when I said her name with cheese- she LOVES cheese. But the crucial thing, once I started using it in public (on trails and in a park) was to evoke the response BEFORE she took off running - which meant I had to be very alert not only to our surroundings and be aware of anybody approaching us, but to her responses.
Once she was locked-on, it was MUCH harder to get her attention, and at that point she was also self-rewarding with the running, and often being rewarded by the people she'd run at - those she didn't scare usually petted her.
The same would apply to using a trained/conditioned response to the e-collar tap- it will work best if you catch him before he's running. And of course, the same cautions apply as to using an E-collar when he's close to a dog or human as applied to using it when he's playing with another dog- you don't want him to make a bad association.
Which leads me to one more comment - IMO, if you decide to get an e-collar, you need to make a firm decision BEFORE you start using it as to whether or not you want to use it strictly for recall and call-off. That's the easiest and simplest way to use it- you train the dog that the collar tap means to turn towards you, to stop, and/or to come to you. You can do that on a low level, at home, and never have to use stronger corrections unless the dog gets so locked on something that he doesn't feel it or ignores it.
If you're going to try to use it for more advanced or more complex things, you really need to find a good trainer to work with from the beginning. It sounds to me, though, that for your situation and your dog, recall/call-off is all you need.
IOW, you want to catch him in the moment when he's first noticing them and thinking about running up, not wait until he's running at them or already there- then immediately praise and reward him for responding.

Your comments are along what I've been thinking. I can anticipate Kanook's actions rather well. I've been reading more about the "ecollars" and am further impressed with the idea. From what I read, it seems many people think of them as a stun gun. However, I find that it is more along the line of muscle stimulators. I"ve had many treatments on my back by one. (I liked the higher settings) So, when I read that it gives a tug like a leash, it makes sense to me.
We stopped at a favorite hiking area today but had to leave as there were other people and their dogs ... to me well enough in those distracting situations when he want to run ahead to see another dog or person.

You have to be more interesting than those other dogs and people. You write that Kanook pays attention to you while it's only the two of you, so you'll have to move it up a notch when others grab his attention. Run away from him squealing like a little girl (really) or keep a favourite toy hiiden to bring out for just this purpose. Or use food - whatever motivates him.
As I know he understands my commands but choses to ignore them in these circumstances, it was my thought that the training collar would be used then.

IMO, at this stage, any sort of correction wouldn't be helpful. For a correction to work, the dog has to understand the desired behaviour in context. In the dog park scenario you describe, Kanook "choses to ignore (commands) in these circumstances". In other words, he doesn't yet fully understand your commands.

Nothing that you've written suggests that your dog is aggressive, just impolite - far from uncommon. I'd see a trainer for some group classes.

Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
You have to be more interesting than those other dogs and people.

Matt, you know I love you... but have you ever owned a Husky? :-) Not that your advice isn't good for lots of dogs and lots of situations- it is- but if Kanook's anything like Davi was, he'll shrug, think "There goes that silly human trying to fool me again", and go right on with what he really wants to do.
Note to Steve: I haven't mentioned this before now, but I HAVE lived with and worked with a Husky.
IMO, at this stage, any sort of correction wouldn't be helpful. For a correction to work, the dog has to understand the desired behaviour in context.

Actually, from what Steve wrote, I think Kanook has a fairly good idea of what Steve wants. And if Steve trains him the right way, the e-collar won't be a correction, per se, but a signal.
And not incidentally, as already posted, the E-collar worked very well for Rocsi in very similar circumstances.
She already understood the recall well, but would either not hear me at all because she was so intent on what she was doing, or would deliberately ignore me. Terriers are like that- and so are Huskies.
In the dog park scenario you describe,
Kanook "choses to ignore (commands) in these circumstances". In other words, he doesn't yet fully understand your commands.

Again, knowing Huskies- and terriers- I think odds are good Kanook IS choosing to ignore Steve. Also, at this point, I think you may be missing the fact that we're no longer dicussing the scenario of Kanook playing with other dogs, but of hiking on trails.
Again, knowing Huskies- and terriers- I think odds are good Kanook IS choosing to ignore Steve. Also, at this point, ... the fact that we're no longer dicussing the scenario of Kanook playing with other dogs, but of hiking on trails.

This one really bothers me. I would never allow my Sibes to hike off-leash. Combine the tendency to run off (and to just keep running) with the profoundly predatory nature of the dogs, and you've got potential for when things go wrong to go very, very wrong. I don't find leashing my dogs when we hike (and we do a lot of hiking) to be at all onerous.

I do let them off-leash at the dog park, but we've got a huge park that's relatively isolated.

Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed)

Since January 2001 the federal budget outlook for 2002-2011 has deteriorated by $8.8 trillion.
I don't find leashing my dogs when we hike (and we do a lot of hiking) to be at all onerous.

i hike with leashed dogs, sometimes on very narrow trails. as long as they have decent leash manners, i don't find it to be a big deal. (if i can managed not to trip over the mower cord, a couple of leashes should be easy peasy, right?)

shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
I don't find leashing my dogs when we hike (and we do a lot of hiking) to be at all onerous.

i hike with leashed dogs, sometimes on very narrow trails. as long as they have decent leash manners, i don't find it to be a big deal.

if you knew constant hunger and zero freedom and excitement, you might find it a big deal. If you were owned by an obsessive/compulsive mental case, you might find it a big deal.
If you had to jump on the counter every day, for every tiny crumb and morsel you could find, because you were so hungry, you might find it a big deal.
easy peazy to understand!
Let me know if I can be of any more heelp!
Disclaimer:


MENTAL ILLNESS IN RPD*
Mental illness is a public issue in the dog newsgroups. People are always running around calling other people mentally ill and diagnosing their illnesses. I think it's only fair that we have an accurate list of who is and who isn't mentally ill, so that we can avoid any misunderstandings and promote group harmony.
This list is strictly for group harmony purposes.


Dateline: rec.pets.dogs.* newsgroups
Breaking Mental Illness News, JUNE 2004!
HATTIE @ 47 lbs!
Hattie, a boxer owned by shelly couvrette is
now down to 47 pounds. Couvrette, a librarian
at Indiana U. who suffers from obsessive/
compulsive disorder (OCD), was told by three
different Veterinarians that Hattie was "way
too skinny" when Hattie weighed 53 lbs.
Undeterred by that, and the reactions from
family and strangers on the street, shelly
continued shopping for vets and cutting
calories until Hattie,a chronic counter
surfer at age 5 now weighs just 47 lbs!
shelly finds all the symptoms of a starving
dog searching for nutrients to be endlessly
entertaining. Couvrette has developed a
unique technique to fool dogs who are
having pangs of starvation. She feeds them
green beans and canned pumpkin, so there
will be some "filler" in their stomachs
when they give her the "I'm Starving no,
really" routine.
shelly is not nearly as obsessed with her
own weight, and has never been told by a
medical professional that she is "way too
skinny." If so, that medical professional
would be end up on this crazy person list
as well.
For a complete recap of the shelly and
hattie show, page down to the bottom of
this list.
A SPECIAL BONUS ON shelly the librarian at Indiana U.

SHELLY IS THE ONLY ONE WHO DOESN'T THINK HATTIE IS STARVING
EMACIATED, VET WAS SURPRISED
"when i got harriet she was emaciated, so
i asked my vet for advice on slowly adding
weight to her. six months later i took
harriet in for her spring check-up and my
vet was surprised that at how thin she still
was."
shelly couvrette
STILL VET SHOPPING
" i've been told by three
different vets that harriet (53lbs) is
way too skinny. we're still vet-shopping,
BTW."
shelly couvrette
THE OL' "I'M STARVING" ROUTINE
"if you really can't resist it when your dog pulls the "i'm starving!" routine , you can give
him some frozen green beans or a small amount
of plain pureed pumpkin. i would also suggest
putting the food out of his sight. i keep my
food still inside the bags, which are tightly
rolled down inside trash cans in the closed
laundry room. that keeps it fresh and keeps
it out of my dogs' sight."
shelly couvrette
POSITIVELY STARVED
"heh. i get the opposite response. people think
that poor little harriet is positively starved
to death. i've actually had people stop me in
the pet supply shop and tell me that i need to
fatten her up!"
shelly couvrette
WHO WANTS TO BE TOLD YOU ARE HURTING YOUR
WIDDLE PRECIOUS?
"i think that may be part of the problem. who
wants to go to a vet who tells you you're
hurting your .widdle precious? i think the
other part is that some vets really don't
realize that what they consider proper weight
is fat. after having been told by a couple of
vets that my dogs are too thin, i've got a dim
view of vets on that topic."
shelly couvrette
JUST A BITE WON'T HURT
shelly's mom
FEED HER AND I'LL RIP YOUR
ARM OFF,
shelly
"my mom is kinda that way, but not *as* bad.
she thinks that harriet is awfully skinny,
so feeding her table snax is okay. she
tells me that just a bite won't hurt."
shelly couvrette
March 2004, HATTIE DOWN TO 47 POUNDS
Goes from WAY TOO SKINNY to
WAY WAY WAY too freakin' skinny
"while i was sick,
elliott was pretty good (he got really
needy and pathetic toward the end), but
harriet turned into 47lbs of pure
orneriness."
shelly couvrette
MORE DESPERATE COUNTER SURFING, June 2004
last night when i came home to a box of
instant mashed potatoEs strewn all over
the house and white goo plastered all over
the dogs' muzzles. they were just innocent
bystanders.
shelly couvrette
NOBODY IS STARVING FAT PIG SHELLY
NOBODY WILL STOP SHELLY ON THE STREET
AND TELL HER SHE IS STARVING HERSELF
shelly's fat face

There are a lot of big fat women on these groups
who starve their dogs out of vanity, but shelly
is a special case.
shelly is moore than a little bit beyond the pale
Shelly has OCD, and maybe she's just a little
obsessive about measuring out extra tiny and
discrete portions with a tiny measuring cup, or
counting out pieces of green bean or pumpkin
that she gives her dogs when they give her the
"I'm Starving" routine. When grandma tried to
give Hattie a snack, shelly probably went apeshit, because it was in violation of her Obsessive need
to oversee every tiny calorie that goes into her
widdle precious' mouth.
shelly's a special case, a special kind of dog
abuser

this marks the end of the rec.pets.dogs.* crazy person list

copyright 2004
dogtv.com networks
you are free to reproduce this list
this is michael
reporting live...
http://dogtv.com
but have you ever owned a Husky?

No Huskies, but my family had 2 Norweigan Elkhounds. I also know plenty of Huskies at the off-leash park. I'm aware of these dogs' nature to wander where they want to go, but I still see a lot of well controlled off-leash Huskies on the trails at the parks.
In the dog park scenario you describe, Kanook "choses to ignore (commands) in these circumstances". In other words, he doesn't yet fully understand your commands.

Again, knowing Huskies- and terriers- I think odds are good Kanook IS choosing to ignore Steve. Also, at this point, ... the fact that we're no longer dicussing the scenario of Kanook playing with other dogs, but of hiking on trails.

No, I didn't miss that.

Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
()
As I know he understands my commands but choses to ... my thought that the training collar would be used then.

IMO, at this stage, any sort of correction wouldn't be helpful.

Why not??
For a correction to work, the dog has to understand the desired behaviour in context. In the dog park scenario you describe, Kanook "choses to ignore (commands) in these circumstances". In other words, he doesn't yet fully understand your commands.

From what I can remember of this problem, it's far more likely that this dog fully understands the command, but chooses to ignore it.

Just the right opportunity for a well-timed correction.

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to reply via e-mail
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