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IMO, at this stage, any sort of correction wouldn't be ... the dog has to understand the desired behaviour in context.

Actually, from what Steve wrote, I think Kanook has a fairly good idea of what Steve wants.

"I second that emotion."

Handsome Jack Morrison
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IMO, if you're not sure which is which, the thing to do is seperate the dogs temporarily, and see what the "victim" does. If s/he bounces back for more, leave 'em alone. ;-)

Yup. This is the bully test that I use. :}
Sometimes the "victim" dog is squealing, lying on his back, and acting altogether put upon. More often than not, when you let him go, he dives right for the "bully" aqain.
In Madigan's first puppy class, there was a golden pup she would drag across the floor by the ear. Several times we separated them just to make sure... it looked PAINFUL... and each time, the golden would dive back to the floor in front of Maddie. Drag me again! That's fun!
The other 10%, btw, is fight challenging/sparring being mistaken for play by one or both dog owners.

People often ask me how to tell if dogs are playing or fighting. I find it hard to explain, since the signs often come very quickly and JQP isn't used to perceiving their dogs' body signals that precisely. Basically, I tell them what Ian said at the seminar - turn off the sound and look for bent elbows. If you mentally turn off the sound, a lot of scary-sounding interaction looks quite innocent. I also add to watch for staring and momentary stillness.
And as you said, you also have to keep an eye on things getting TOO rough; dogs, like kids, sometimes get what my Mam calls "whooped up" and need to take a break from each other.

Yes. That's another thing Ian said at the seminar. He said that pups who play together in an instructured way can become "social loons."

In fact, that statement made me change the way I do puppy play. Ian said to interrupt them every 30 seconds. I don't do that, but I do have the owners practice name recognition and "gotcha" while playing. In later classes, we also practice the "come away." Keeps them from getting too carried away, and teaches them to think while they're excited.
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From what I read, it seems many people think of them as a stun gun. However, I find that it is more along the line of muscle stimulators.

Correct. It doesn't "burn", nor does it feel like getting a static shock; there's no spark. At lower levels, it's a tingle; at higher levels, it can be startling and/or uncomfortable, but I don't find the sensation even remotely painful.
I use the collar set at a level which feels to me like a firm tap- not painful, but strong enough to get my attention- and that's the way my JRT reacts to it; it doesn't scare her or hurt her, just gets her attention. "Oh- were you talking to me? Ok!" is her general attitude.
IMO, at this stage, any sort of correction wouldn't be helpful.

Why not??

I'm not convinced Kanook understands his recall, simple as that.
For a correction to work, the dog has to understand ... In other words, he doesn't yet fully understand your commands.

From what I can remember of this problem, it's far more likely that this dog fully understands the command, but chooses to ignore it.

That's your and Sarah's opinion. I've gone through the thread again and cannot see anything that makes me believe that Kanook KNOWS his recall.
Just the right opportunity for a well-timed correction.

I have no problem with well-timed corrections.

Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
That's your and Sarah's opinion. I've gone through the thread again and cannot see anything that makes me believe that Kanook KNOWS his recall.

And that's why I asked if you'd ever LIVED WITH a Husky. :-)

Seeing them in classes, at dog parks, or on trails is not, IMO, sufficient to give you a true understanding of them; having an intellectual understanding of their independent nature isn't the same as living with one, and experiencing and understanding first hand that they often know EXACTLY what the humans around them want them to do, and simply choose not to do it.
The same, incidentally, is true of many terriers and hounds, but they don't quite take it to the degree that Huskies do.
(Siberian Huskies) often know EXACTLY what the humans around them want them to do, and simply choose not to do it.

Yeah, like killing bats.
But anyway, Siberians are pretty easy to deal with if you figure out how to keep them entertained and you don't embarrass easily. I'd say the bets are off, though, in an off-leash hiking situation.

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Yeah, like killing bats.

Hm. That sounds like there's a story to tell!
But anyway, Siberians are pretty easy to deal with if you figure out how to keep them entertained and you don't embarrass easily. I'd say the bets are off, though, in an off-leash hiking situation.

Well, exactly. Especially with a dog who's already been allowed to learn that when he's off-leash, he doesn't have to listen.
Why not??

I'm not convinced Kanook understands his recall, simple as that.

Fair enough. But it's very hard for *me* to read the following:

"When I am a distance away, he often ignores my "Kanook! No!" or "Kanook! Come!" Othertimes, I can be far off and call him and he will come running to me."
...without thinking that the dog KNOWS the commands but also knows that the greater the DISTANCE he is from Steve (and the greater the level of interest he has in remaining where he's at) is often inversely proportional to Kanook's ability to "hear" Steve's commands.

If Steve is absolutely, positively certain that Kanook can hear the command(and he's essentially reliable at closer distances), it's time for a walk-down and a correction. The more often Steve allows Kanook to "ignore" his commands at a distance, the more often he will.

Maybe one day at his peril.
From what I can remember of this problem, it's far more likely that this dog fully understands the command, but chooses to ignore it.

That's your and Sarah's opinion. I've gone through the thread again and cannot see anything that makes me believe that Kanook KNOWS his recall.

See above.
Just the right opportunity for a well-timed correction.

I have no problem with well-timed corrections.

Good.
Because this is a very good time for one.

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to reply via e-mail
The Crazy Left's Fantasyland:
http://www.victorhanson.com/Articles/Private%20Papers/Fantasyland.html

Hillary Clinton:"We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good."
The Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler Little Green Footballs http://nicedoggie.net / http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog / Glenn Reynolds - InstaPundit Mark Steyn http://www.instapundit.com / http://www.steynonline.com / The Belmont Club Michelle Malkin http://belmontclub.blogspot.com / http://michellemalkin.com / Don Luskin Rightwing News http://www.poorandstupid.com/chronicle.asp http://www.rightwingnews.com / The Indepundit Victor Davis Hanson-Private Papers http://www.lt-smash.us / http://victorhanson.com/index.html
I'd say the bets are off, though, in an off-leash hiking situation.

I see plenty, though. Maybe it's because Sibes are a very popular breed here and I only see those that do well at off- leash parks and on trails.

Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
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