Diddy's assertion is that any dog who passes Basic Obedience (as if classes by that name were somehow regulated or consistent) should be able to get their CD. I guess all of the clubs that run Advanced Basic and Novice are just wasting their time? I mean, they could just have Basic class and go right to Open, dontcha think? Or do you (Diddy) think they just do it for the money?
Of course, classes aren't actually necessary for any obedience (or any other type of) titles. Hmm - guess it always comes down to the same thing - the OWNER! Golly Gee!

Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
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Diddy's assertion is that any dog who passes Basic Obedience (as if classes by that name were somehow regulated or ... other type of) titles. Hmm - guess it always comes down to the same thing - the OWNER! Golly Gee!

Not here. But then classes in a major city are necessarily teaching commands based on an entirely different priority than people who are way out in the country with lots of property that's isolated from the rest of the world.
When you're introducing the concept of loose lead walking to a 3 month old pup in the middle of traffic, dropped bagels, kids with ice cream cones and other dogs every 5 feet, in a totally uncontrolled environment (i.e. city streets from minute one) the specifics of head placement really aren't what you're focusing on. Distractions? You bet. More than most novices will ever face in a lifetime. Perfect heeling patterns? Not important enough to make the focus. Ditto with the other commands.

in some environments, real life training of pet dogs takes an enormous effort on the part of the owners. To add perfect placements and expectations of triallling, when teaching their dogs to pee while trucks are backfiring 3 feet from their unhousebroken pups, while being on a loose lead while NOT eating the dropped ham sandwich and while a three year old kid runs down the street screaming is a lot for a new puppy owner to focus on and accomplish.
I'm not saying one is better than the other (though I'm sure some will chime in), but people in the city need dogs they can live with amidst the chaos. Prioritizing perfect placement over everything else seems like a bhizarre priority to me. but then I allow that different people live in different environments, and I don't actually think that's a terrible* thing. I don't assume everyone should live a certain way. If one *does think everyone should live in the same enviroment they do, then I could see how they would also assume that everyone else should have the same goals they do.
Tara
... I said a dog that graduates basic obedience should be able to pass a CD. But a dog that is a CDX, has more than basic modicum of obedience proficiency.

The problem with this statement is that there is no true definition of what a basic obedience class is, nor the standard used to determine whether or not a dog has graduated.
Or do you think graduates of your basic PetSmart class are ready for the Novice ring? Probably not (based on the graduates of that program I have seen).
Heck, I'd say 90% of the graduates of the basic classes at my local dog training club aren't ready for the Novice ring. "Graduation" at our club is the CGC test held at the end of every session, which is more than many classes offer for graduation exercises. A lot of the graduates of our basic classes can pass the CGC but that in no way means they are ring-ready for obedience.
On the other end of the spectrum, we have the *** I am about to start trialing in Novice, who's never been to any class. But I feel pretty good about our chances of earning a quick and reasonably high- scoring CD, and also pretty good about where we'll be in obedience a year or so from now.
If your dog is heeling on a loose leash, they don't notice when the leash is gone, which makes the leash a mental thing only.

This SOO depends on the dog and the method of training used. Some don't, I agree, and some will but it doesn't matter because they know what is wanted and they're willing to go along with the job. But others? I've seen way too many excellent on-lead performances completely fall apart once the lead is removed to agree with this statement.
And then I've had the dogs who were the other way around, much worse on-lead than off. Ollie was one of these, his on-lead heeling scores were abysmal, but we didn't lose many points once that lead came off. He finished his CD in three straight trials and all three novice judges commented on this phenomenon.

Lisa Ochoa and the K9 PNut Gallery: Ripley CDX AX OAP AXJ AJP FM CGC (BC); Luke CGC (BC); Banjo CD RN ARX CRXII TRP CGC (Whippet); Karma ARX CRX TRP CGC(Whippet); Zorro (Teenager Whippet). At the Bridge:
V Oliver CDX HT NA FM CGC (TMDITW - 1989?-6/4/02)
Nellie Princess CGC (Beloved AMX - 1988?-10/16/04) Urbana, IL
Story time. Khan hates being brushed. Can't blame him, because ... held his position until I told him he was done.

A Rocky story. My dogs get a release to eat, and I once forgot to give Rocky his. He's a ... he'd held his training, I was dismayed at the inadvertent anguish I'd put him through. Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

I really amazes me how angry some people are in this group. This is JUST a discussion about dogs. No reason to yell and scream at one another, eh?
Tom
The problem with this statement is that there is no ... (based on the graduates of that program I have seen).

As has been said before. PETSMART is to dog training as what MacDonald's Hamburger flippers are to Chef's.

But they call what they "teach" basic obedience. So clearly, not ALL dogs graduating from ALL basic obedience classes are ready to earn a CD.
Heck, I'd say 90% of the graduates of the basic ... that in no way means they are ring-ready for obedience.

CGC is a basic sidewalk pass.

To some extent, I agree, though I do think it has its place, and it clearly has value in terms of being a minimum denominator of determining a "trained" dog.
But - again - basic obedience classes taught at our local club do NOT get the dog ready for the Novice ring. Most of the folks in those classes aren't interested in competition obedience anyway. They want a dog that comes when it's called, that stays put till released, that won't smear its muddy paws on the boss when he comes over for dinner, and won't rip the handler's arm out of its socket when out for a walk. That's what the public wants, that's what the CGC rewards, and that's what our basic classes are designed to teach. For those who want to go further, we have more advanced classes.
We have had dogs earn a CD after a basic Novice class with us, but by no means all of them are ready after only one class. Some dogs just take longer and need more training than that, particularly if they are owned and trained by a new person.
Yup, you dont need obedience school to have a well trained dog. But obedience school makes distraction training/socialization and obedience structure easier.

True, but classes aren't necessarily the only path to earning a CD, any more than taking one class will guarantee you a CD-ready dog.

I think you got caught with your shorts down on this one, sorry.

Lisa Ochoa and the K9 PNut Gallery: Ripley CDX AX OAP AXJ AJP FM CGC (BC); Luke CGC (BC); Banjo CD RN ARX CRXII TRP CGC (Whippet); Karma ARX CRX TRP CGC(Whippet); Zorro (Teenager Whippet). At the Bridge:
V Oliver CDX HT NA FM CGC (TMDITW - 1989?-6/4/02)
Nellie Princess CGC (Beloved AMX - 1988?-10/16/04) Urbana, IL
Sorry, missed this.
It's the instructors JOB to fix the heel on a dog if they aren't performing well in class.

No, it's NOT the instructor's job. It is the handler's job, that's why they call her the "handler" (or the "trainer") and not the "instructor." The instructor is there to teach the handler and help her teach the dog.
It's a very rare novice handler that is ready for the obedience ring after one basic obedience class, and I think it's unfair to imply that if the dog and handler team are NOT so ready, then there is something wrong with them. Plenty of dogs go through loopy adolescent phases, plenty of handlers need extra time to learn their part of the job, some dogs have temperament issues that must be worked through, etc.
If they aren't performing well, I call some dogs to a remedial class until they are getting the results the students paid for.

And what if they never get those results? Suppose the reason they're not performing well is because the handler doesn't practice between classes. What then?

Lisa Ochoa and the K9 PNut Gallery: Ripley CDX AX OAP AXJ AJP FM CGC (BC); Luke CGC (BC); Banjo CD RN ARX CRXII TRP CGC (Whippet); Karma ARX CRX TRP CGC(Whippet); Zorro (Teenager Whippet). At the Bridge:
V Oliver CDX HT NA FM CGC (TMDITW - 1989?-6/4/02)
Nellie Princess CGC (Beloved AMX - 1988?-10/16/04) Urbana, IL
Diddy,
I appreciate you giving my dogs credit in that there is the possibity that if I had gotten myself together and shouted a command to them they would have dropped to the ground instead of jumping on me and the pup. Of course I will never know that for sure. I do know I was in shock and was screaming for my partner who was inside the house (dumb, I know) On the basic obedience class leading immediately to a CD? I think there are so many variables. You have a very "quick" dog and you have the knowledge and persistence to work him. That is why it was so easy for you IMO.
I have seen people drag their dogs around the ring in a novice class and still get the same little certificate we did at the end. I had a very "quick" dog with the Dobe and not a very "quick"dog with the St Bernard.
Be Free..Judy
I really amazes me how angry some people are in this group. This is JUST a discussion about dogs. No reason to yell and scream at one another, eh?

It really amazes ME that you quote Matt and Suja's posts before saying this; there's absolutely nothing in either post that is even CLOSE to being "angry" or "yelling and screaming". In fact, the only thing I've seen in this thread that remotely resembles such things are Diddy's comments about "bitchslapping" and so forth.
Now, is there some animosity towards Diddy in some of the posts? Yes. However, that animosity's based in a more than ten-year-long history, with most of the fault in Diddy's court - and that animosity is NOT found in anything posted by either Matt or Suja.
Not to mention that in purely logical terms, Diddy's orginal assertion IS incorrect; it's just plain nonsensical to claim that ANY dog should be able to attain the basic AKC Obed. title after taking one "basic obedience class". I won't go into the reasons why, since they've been clearly stated by numerous other people.
Well, aside from commenting that despite training WELL beyond that required in most "basic obedience" classes - witness their multiple-Champion status in agility - neither of my dogs would ever be able to attain the CD. Why? A, for the simple reason that they're crossbreeds, and therefore ineligible, B, because I've never bothered to train a heel, although they both have an excellent off-leash "with me".
Sarah F.
NATCH-2 Brenin, CGC; AD; Triple Triple Superior, O-TG-E, TN-E Gwydion, Buddha Cat
NATCH-3 Morag Thistledown, Triple Triple Superior, Triple Versatility, S-TN-E, O-TG-E
Robyn Roofwalker, Master of Meezer Mischief
neither of my dogs would ever be able to attain the CD. Why? A, for the simple reason that they're crossbreeds, and therefore ineligible, B, because I've never bothered to train a heel, although they both have an excellent off-leash "with me".

Yabbut you COULD teach it (and I bet pretty easily) and you can show them at AMBOR, UKC, and ASCA obedience trials.
That doesn't mean I think you SHOULD or HAVE TO or even WANT TO!

Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
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