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Doesn't Pamela Dennison have just a teeny tiny little agenda? (dripping sarcasm here)
I'm not Marcel but I have a lot of experience using choke chains, snap around slip collars, martingale collars, buckle collars, prong/pinch collars and half check collars.. I've also used head halters and e-collars.
Guess what? Everyone one of those training tools has a place. Depends on the dog and the handler.
Beth
I like choke chains for some dogs, and pinch collars for other dogs. You could always consider, if you still think choke chains are too cruel, but are worried about your dog slipping out to use two collars on walks. Put your flat buckel collar on the dog and a choke chain below it. When you hook the leash to the dog, hook it to both collars. The flat collar will prevent the collar from serving it's function, which you may view as cruel, but if the flat collar slips off, the chain will kick in and not let the dog run off.
Nick
And many experienced and knowledgeable trainers still use them.

Apart from repeating what you have read on this NG, what is your experience with choke chains and trainers?

I have never trained Moogli with one, but I have watched people at thedog park work with their dogs on ... people who don't know how to use them, yet we don't automatically label them bad. Marcel and Moogli http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/>>;

I'm glad you didn't use a choke on Moogli , he deserved (and got ) better than that.
I went to Dt classes in the 60'snd 70s and used one as every did at that time and Barbara Woodhouse was very popular at that time . I can't think of any well known trainers that do use chokes off hand except Koehler and Barbara and they are both dead.
(Beth , haha re Pam Denison-) there are more than just her) I've never used a food blender to train a dog but there is always a first time I guess!
I have to sign off now as I have brand new spanking PC and a PC man is coming to connect it and transfer stuff , I hope nothing goes wrong and I'm not gone for some time:(
If you google me you'll find all the many posts I've sent re this subject in the many
discussions there have been.
Alison
I thought he said, at that time, that the choke chain could break the dogs larynx.

Want to know what causes injuries to dogs' larynxes?

Allowing UNTRAINED dogs to constantly PULL on their collars, yes, including flat buckled collars, for pretty much their entire lives.

The next time you see a dog dragging his owner down the street, check to see what kind of collar the dog is wearing.
More times than not, it will be a flat buckled collar.

And, depending on how long the dog has been dragging his owner around, the dog's larynx has almost certainly been injured.

So the moral of the story is:
TRAIN your dog!
Use a TRAINING collar to do it, and get it over with.

That way the dog can walk, injury free, at your side, on a LOOSE leash, for the rest of his life.

Handsome Jack Morrison
Hizballah Attacked UNIFIL Twice This Week:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21801 Hizballah Attacked UNIFIL Twice This Week&only

Hezbollah was using UN post as 'shield':
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50

Obsession: Radical Islam’s War with the West (a must-see movie, especially for Shelly, who's probably still trying to figure out who "these people" are. Heck, she's still trying to figure out who the Nazis were): http://www.obsessionthemovie.com /
I stand with Israel.
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005547.htm
Two books that every American (and Canadian) must read:
1) The Rage and The Pride, by Orianna Fallacihttp://makeashorterlink.com/?J13521A6D
2) The Force of Reason, by Orianna Fallacihttp://makeashorterlink.com/?T42552A6D
While they still can.
()
I went to Dt classes in the 60'snd 70s and used one as every did at that time and Barbara Woodhouse was very popular at that time .

She's still popular among dog trainers with a clue.

Especially with dog trainers who don't write books.
I can't think of any well known trainers that do use chokes off hand except Koehler and Barbara and they are both dead.

That's because, like the ostrich, you live your life with your head stuck in the sand.
(Beth , haha re Pam Denison-) there are more than just her)

Oh, yes. There are silly, irresponsible trainers everywhere you look.

All trying to differentiate themselves in order to sell their books, attract new clients, get on TV, endear themselves to "breed ring bitties," etc.
I've never used a food blender to train a dog but there is always a first time I guess!

Note to Marcel: Apparently the use of analogy is lost on Allison, no?
I have to sign off now as I have brand new spanking PC and a PC man is coming to connect it and transfer stuff , I hope nothing goes wrong and I'm not gone for some time:(

Here's hoping that the "PC man" is a Koehlerite!

Handsome Jack Morrison
Hizballah Attacked UNIFIL Twice This Week:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21801 Hizballah Attacked UNIFIL Twice This Week&only

Hezbollah was using UN post as 'shield':
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50

Obsession: Radical Islam’s War with the West (a must-see movie, especially for Shelly, who's probably still trying to figure out who "these people" are. Heck, she's still trying to figure out who the Nazis were): http://www.obsessionthemovie.com /
I stand with Israel.
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005547.htm
Two books that every American (and Canadian) must read:
1) The Rage and The Pride, by Orianna Fallacihttp://makeashorterlink.com/?J13521A6D
2) The Force of Reason, by Orianna Fallacihttp://makeashorterlink.com/?T42552A6D
While they still can.
I went to Dt classes in the 60'snd 70s and ... and Barbara Woodhouse was very popular at that time .

She's still popular among dog trainers with a clue.

I read one of her books and couldn't find any useful guidance in it. What I remember is stuff like, "if your dogs love you they'll come when you call." In a sense I suppose I believe that, but at the time I wanted to know how (to make them come, and/or to make them love me.
Especially with dog trainers who don't write books.

Well, maybe that's the problem.
But seriously, folks. Didn't we lay to rest the choke-collars-do- throat-damage idea a long time ago? It all traced back to Anne Marie Silverton saying it at some seminars, and nobody could find her source. Then that helpful Scandinavian poster provided a translation of a supposed scientific article. It was not peer- reviewed, and the author stated up front that he set up the "study" to prove to the world that chain training collars were cruel. Not to at least attempt objectivity is unscientific, of course, but in addition he didn't demonstrate anything. There were no control groups, no baselines, nothing to support his supposed conclusions, just a lot of harangue.
Remember? The supposed "German study" of choke collars vs. pinch collars?
Amy Dahl
She's still popular among dog trainers with a clue.

I read one of her books and couldn't find any useful guidance in it. What I remember is stuff like, ... that, but at the time I wanted to know how (to make them come, and/or to make them love me.

Well, IMO, if you "couldn't find any useful guidance in the book," say "No Bad Dogs!", there could only be two reasons for that.
1. You weren't looking for it very hard.

or
2. You already knew most of it.

I'm going to assume it's Number 2.
And as a basic primer, it's still pretty damn good.

It's also a classic.
One of the best things that the wonderful Ms. Woodhouse did (before anyone else that I can think of, right off the top of my head) was to show/convince dog owners that they were the problem, not their dogs.

Which is also why I think someone like Cesar Millan is very good for dog training, too.

Handsome Jack Morrison
'Disproportionate' in What Moral Universe?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/27/AR2006072701725.html

Hizballah Attacked UNIFIL Twice This Week:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21801 Hizballah Attacked UNIFIL Twice This Week&only

Hezbollah was using UN post as 'shield':
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50

Obsession: Radical Islam’s War with the West (a must-see movie, especially for Shelly, who's probably still trying to figure out who "these people" are. Heck, she's still trying to figure out who the Nazis were): http://www.obsessionthemovie.com /
I stand with Israel.
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005547.htm
Two books that every American (and Canadian) must read:
1) The Rage and The Pride, by Orianna Fallacihttp://makeashorterlink.com/?J13521A6D
2) The Force of Reason, by Orianna Fallacihttp://makeashorterlink.com/?T42552A6D
While they still can.
Hello Cecil, Add me to the list that suggests choke chain collars for obedience training. May I also suggest that ... in the house. If they only go out on a leash,,no problem..Good Luck with your new dogs. Be Free, Judy

Thanks Judy! That's very good advice, and so important to note.

Cecil
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