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Freddie. Jade.

Me too:).
Alison
BTW, the dogs name is Freddie. Our daughter named him ... in like you wouldn't believe, would not budge at all.

What has the vet said about walking him b4 his shots! Until he has completed his vaccination programme, + 2 ... sorry, we carried our puppy everywhere until her shots were completed (not funny, weim pups get big and heavy quickly!)

My vet, and many others, will say that yes - socialization has its risks for disease. But that lack of socialization kills more dogs than does disease. The trick, in my vet's view, is to use care in choosing the socialization location. So, for example, there is a near-by neighborhood of people who tend to take good care of their pets, tend to vaccinate and so is a low risk for problems. Places with a more general population are more risky, and places like roadside rest stops and uncontrolled dog parks are very high risk.
Everything I have read of this post, though going back on ground you seem to now have accepted, is that you don't seem to realise quite what a tiny and dependent baby you have introduced in to your home.

I do think that it is easy for us not to recognize things that would be fear causing to a young pup - or even a young child. In nature a young pup alone is at high risk of being eaten. The den serves as a safe haven. Puppies foolish enough to leave the protection of the den without the pack there to guard them don't live long. So it is natural and expected that a young pup will not want to venture into a backyard alone, particularly after dark. And in nature new=danger which is what the socialization process is all about. A healthy puppy with instincts intact SHOULD be fearful of new things at first. It is up to the adults to show the pup what is OK and what is not by their behavior.

Diane Blackman
http://dog-play.com /
http://dogplay.com/Shop /
My vet, and many others, will say that yes - socialization has its risks for disease. But that lack of socialization kills more dogs than does disease.

we carried our puppy everywhere
until her shots were completed

Maybe I didn't put enough emphasis on everywhere but I meant specifically taking her to see livestock, public buildings such as shops (obv. non food selling), banks, pubs and music bars, around kids playgrounds, alongside busy roads, on trains etc, etc.
Given tiny legs and undeveloped muscles, she could never have got this socialisation if I had walked her, besides, it took a few weeks b4 she was big enough to fit a proper collar on her securely. I wouldn't want to socialise a scared puppy to trains & heavy traffic in a loose collar. We used a puppy harness we could get our hands into to secure a firm hold - much safer than a collar.
By carrying her she was also exposed to 'big and scary' but not so bluntly as if tethered to a lead and dragged up to it, she was in the arms and at face level of her trusted calm and happy familiar family.

Lastly, its generally agreed over here that pulling on the lead is a learned trait. By teaching the dog the correct walking position b4 introducing the lead, you've all but cracked lead training and so don't have to 'untrain' the trait of pulling. Prevention is easier (on everyone, people and dogs) than the cure.
Diana

Cindy's web site
http://cindy-incidentally.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk
My vet, and many others, will say that yes - ... that lack of socialization kills more dogs than does disease.

we carried our puppy everywhere

Carrying does not allow the puppy to investigate scary things. It also does not allow the puppy to develop good coping skills. It never has to address the new and unusual on its own terms. Carrying also very often develops rather than reduces fearful behavior because the puppy gets the impression YOU are afraid - otherwise you'd let puppy investigate. So the thing must be bad and scary.
Maybe I didn't put enough emphasis on everywhere but I meant specifically taking her to see livestock, public buildings such as shops (obv. non food selling), banks, pubs and music bars, around kids playgrounds, alongside busy roads, on trains etc, etc.

Good
Given tiny legs and undeveloped muscles, she could never have got this

Muscles are going to have a difficult time developing if they aren't used.
socialisation if I had walked her, besides, it took a few weeks b4 she was big enough to fit a proper collar on her securely.

Harnesses come small enough for rats and ferrets - surely you could have accomplished one for a puppy.
I wouldn't want to socialise a scared puppy to trains & heavy traffic in a loose collar. We used a puppy harness we could get our hands into to secure a firm hold - much safer than a collar.

OK - so use a harness for socialization.
By carrying her she was also exposed to 'big and scary' but not so bluntly as if tethered to a lead and dragged up to it, she was in the arms and at face level of her trusted calm and happy familiar family.

You know being on the ground and encouraged to meet big and scary is entirely possible without (a) being tethered to a lead and (b) dragged up to it.
Lastly, its generally agreed over here that pulling on the lead is a learned trait.

Which has exactly what to do with socialization? There is no reason why a puppy has to pull or be pulled on a lead to be socialized.
By teaching the dog the correct walking position b4 introducing the lead, you've all but cracked lead training and so don't have to 'untrain' the trait of pulling. Prevention is easier (on everyone, people and dogs) than the cure.

It is entirely possible to teach correct walking position without pulling on the lead. This has nothing to do with good socialization.

Diane Blackman
http://dog-play.com /
http://dogplay.com/Shop /
. So, for example, there is a near-by neighborhood
of people who tend to take good care of their pets, tend tovaccinate and so is a low risk for problems. Places with a more generalpopulation are more risky, and places like roadside rest stops and uncontrolled dogparks are very high risk.

Diane Blackman

Hi Diane,
One problem in the UK is that we don't have designated dog parks (AFAIK). If I had a puppy now, I wouldn't want to take the risk. I suppose the breed of pup you have would also affect your decision. Alison
Hi Diane, One problem in the UK is that we don't have designated dog parks (AFAIK). If I had a puppy now, I wouldn't want to take the risk. I suppose the breed of pup you have would also affect your decision. Alison

A dog park is a very bad place for (a) unvaccinated puppies and (b) any puppy or dog who is at all fearful. So lack of dog parks isn't an issue. John Rogerson has some excellent information on socialization in the UK, although I haven't read it lately enough to see if it is consistent with current recommendations on timing.

Diane Blackman
http://dog-play.com /
http://dogplay.com/Shop /
A dog park is a very bad place for (a) unvaccinated puppies and(b) any

puppy or dog who is at all fearful. So lack of dog parks isn't anissue. John Rogerson has some excellent information on socialization in theUK, although I haven't read it lately enough to see if it is consistentwith current recommendations on timing.

I got a bit muddled when you said about uncontrolled dog parks being high risk , I thought that implied there were (designated) controlled dog parks that were low risk:)
I'll do a search on John Rogerson and see what turns up. Alison
I just think there must be some very big cultural differences going on, we live in a much closer society maybe?
We don't have leash laws, most people would still agree over here that if you work a full 8 hour day that a dog is not a good choice of pet, and will suggest that its selfish and unfair to take one on. Our kids play footie together on the greens and the dogs join in, and most vets here (that I've spoken to on forums, seen on vet programmes and discussed my own dogs health with) all agree that excessive exercise is highly dangerous to dogs - but it seems that in the US, their bones are different and they don't get arthritis from over-exercising at a young age. Maybe its just our climate!

Maybe in the us, they just don't generally have so much exercise & stimulation cos the majority are at home all day without a human to follow round? They aren't all part of the community in general but more so are private property ands have less access to the outside world unless they are a member of some sport?
I dunno, but if ever anyone bothers to acknowledge any of my posts, its usually some US person telling me how they don't like what I'm saying, cos its not the way that they do it!
Diana

Cindy's web site
http://cindy-incidentally.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk
I just think there must be some very big cultural differences going on, we live in a much closer society maybe?

I think you're on the right track...
We don't have leash laws, most people would still agree over here that if you work a full 8 hour day that a dog is not a good choice of pet, and will suggest that its selfish and unfair to take one on.

This point fascinates me. If people over here agreed that if you work full-time you shouldn't have a dog, nobody would have a dog. I just went over everybody I know with a dog in my mind, and not one of them would be a dog owner using your criteria.
Our kids play footie
together on the greens and the dogs join in, and most vets here (that I've spoken to on forums, seen ... so are private property ands have less access to the outside world unless they are a member of some sport?

Yes. I think you've hit a nail.
I dunno, but if ever anyone bothers to acknowledge any of my posts, its usually some US person telling me how they don't like what I'm saying, cos its not the way that they do it!

Not the way we do it, but as for liking your way... hey, you've about got me convinced to move to the uk. :}
The description of your society sounds like the US in the 50s.

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