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Yes, but if clicker training is used to guide a dog to the correct behavior when learning a new behavior, throwing a ball or playing tug does not seem to be an appropriate reward.

Why not? If your dog loves playing tug, then playing tug is a terrific reward. If your dog loves belly rubs, then belly rubs it is.

I've gotten behind on my newgroups reading and have deleted without reading whole threads so if you've answered this already, sorry. Answer again. Tell me about your dog. Name? General description? And what does your dog love? That will help us all figure out a reward that will work. The abbreviation for reward in this context is c/t which stands for click/treat.
Lia
Many shepherds are not very food motivated. Toys or balls can usually be their turn on. The only disadvantage is that you won't be able to move as quickly, get as many reps in. I have seen Shepherds learn to respond to food - just depends on what you want to do.
Yes, but if clicker training is used to guide a ... playing tug does not seem to be an appropriate reward.

Why not? If your dog loves playing tug, then playing tug is a terrific reward. If your dog loves belly rubs, then belly rubs it is.

If you would use the clicker system to guide a dog to, let's say, the heel position, do you really want to use a reward that removes the dog from the position? Throwing a tennis ball or playing tug would surely do that. From what I have read, feeding small amounts of soft food is best because the food is easily swallowed and is not disruptive to the guiding/lesson.
I've gotten behind on my newgroups reading and have deleted without reading whole threads so if you've answered this already, ... figure out a reward that will work. The abbreviation for reward in this context is c/t which stands for click/treat.[/nq]She is a 13 month old, DDR (East) German shepherd, working bloodlines, dog. Her name is Berlin. She is 60 cm tall and weighs 68 lb. She can be very intense outside, but her behavior indoors is impeccable. She loves playing tug, dragging large logs out of rivers, and playing rough. Her turn-ons are bodies of water, snow, cats, squirrels, dogs, sheep, ducks, and other feathery things. She has been raised on biologically appropriate raw foods. Her snacks consist primarily of baked lamb lungs (BA BA Qs), but she also is given small amounts of apples.

It was suggested to me that I use hot dogs when training, but I have chosen not to because I think they are too fatty; I prefer to keep her lean. Berlin does not like to be petted unless she is indoors; then she tolerates it. I don't think she is a good canidate for clicker training because of her very high drive, but, like a parachute, the mind works best when it is open. I am learning. I will be asking several more questions on this topic, but I want to go one at a time.
Yes, but if clicker training is used to guide a dog to the correct behavior when learning a new behavior, throwing a ball or playing tug does not seem to be an appropriate reward.

Why not? SAR and drug-dog trainers use tug all the time. I use it extensively in agility training, as well.
BTW- I'm glad you started this thread, because I'd like to recommend a book to you, and the other thread got too long: "Schutzhund Obdience: Training in Drive", by Sheila Booth with Gottfried Dildei.
I think you'd find it both interesting and useful, and very much to the point on your question about using drive in training.
If you would use the clicker system to guide a dog to, let's say, the heel position, do you really want to use a reward that removes the dog from the position?

Depends on what you're teaching.
From what I have read, feeding small amounts of soft food is best because the food is easily swallowed and is not disruptive to the guiding/lesson.

Again, it depends on what you're teaching, where you are in the process of shaping it, and also on what drive you want the dog to be in when performing the task.To give you an example of a complex, moving task which I've used both food and a thrown toy for- weave poles. What I want for my final result is a dog well up in drive, blasting through the poles at high speed. But to start with, I have to get the idea across of the basic motion through the poles. THAT, I taught with a clicker and food, first working on the entry, then on doing a couple of poles, then on doing an entire set.

Once the dog has the basic concept, however, I get the dog up in drive by playing with the toy, or by showing a toy that I know elicits the drive, send the dog through the poles, and throw the toy as the dog exits. She brings it back to me for the tug game, we tug briefly, I say "give", and we repeat the task.
BTW, by the time we're doing full sets at speed, I'm using a marker word rather than a clicker most of the time.
Similarly, you could teach the initial position etc. of heel with the clicker & food; once the dog has the concept, you build up to longer and more complex manuevers, stopping to reward with tug, then returning to the task.
"Schutzhund Obdience

agh. Obviously, that should be "Obedience".
Many shepherds are not very food motivated. Toys or balls can usually be their turn on. The only disadvantage is ... reps in. I have seen Shepherds learn to respond to food - just depends on what you want to do.

Waving hands knowing a GSD that fits the above description very well.

Food, ie click and treat does not motivate Blade. Frisbee OTOH sure enough does or any toy that be thrown. Basically he loves frisbees and you can't say the word in his presence unless of course you are ready to play a bit and train.
Gwen
If you would use the clicker system to guide a dog to, let's say, the heel position, do you really want to use a reward that removes the dog from the position?

The c/t ends the behavior so it shouldn't matter. First you clicker train your dog into the heel position. Little by little, you c/t for strings of behavior, or in this case, holding the position for longer and longer.
Throwing a tennis ball or playing tug would surely do that. From what I have read, feeding small amounts of soft food is best because the food is easily swallowed and is not disruptive to the guiding/lesson.

Yes, that is one advantage of using food for the treat, but if your dog isn't motivated by food, you have to use something else.
She is a 13 month old, DDR (East) German shepherd, working bloodlines, dog. Her name is Berlin. She is 60 cm tall and weighs 68 lb. She can be very intense outside, but her behavior indoors is impeccable.

...
Berlin does not like to be petted unless she is indoors; then she tolerates it. I don't think she is ... I will be asking several more questions on this topic, but I want to go one at a time.

Your dog is so different from mine that I'll be answering questions on clicker training according to the book, not experience. My dog is distractable but not intense and driven the way yours is.

Lia
If you would use the clicker system to guide a dog to, let's say, the heel position, do you really want to use a reward that removes the dog from the position?

Yes. Clicking terminates a behavior by definition. The point I think you're missing here is that if you're clicking a dog to reward him/her for acquiring heel position, then that's the skill you're teaching not something else. But with clicker training you can "up the ante" pretty quickly the initial expectation might be that the dog come to heel position (click!), then the next time the expectation is that the dog come to heel position and look up at you (click!) and the next time she comes to heel, looks up at you, and her butt starts to sink into a sit (click!)... and so on.
From what I have read, feeding small amounts of soft food is best because the food is easily swallowed and is not disruptive to the guiding/lesson.

Not all training that uses food is clicker training; it can be used as a lure, target, or simply as positive reinforcement too. (Well, it can also be used as a bribe, but that doesn't really work as a training technique.)
On the other hand, while I'm not a clicker trainer, I do use food similarly in that a reward terminates a behavior. But I still don't want the training session interrupted by my dog taking 30 seconds to crunch down a dog biscuit. I want my dog to think "I was right! What's next?" Even though that particular behavior has been reinforced, the training session sure isn't over at that point.
JFWIW,
Dianne
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