re: Collars page 16

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I've never assumed that Lynn, or you, or any experienced ... giving the dog the sensation of choking must be happening,

No, it's not. You're speaking from IGNORANCE here.

OK, then let's see what someone who DOESN'T speak from ignorance says about what happens when you apply a correction with the choke chain:

> - from Bashkim Dibra, "Dog Training by Bash", pag. 140

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0451171667/ref=3Dsib rdr dp/1= 02-9535574-8365728?%5Fencoding=3DUTF8&no=3D283155&me=3DATVPDKIKX0DER&st=3Db= ooks
Now what exactly do you think it happens in that brief moment when "you pull on the leash" and "the collar tightens"?
In fact, a good trainer works very hard to prevent any choking action from taking place (as I explained to you, fruitlessly apparently, in a previous post) by keeping the leash at all times *loose.*

At all times, except "when you pull on the leash to make a correction".
Put your leash on your* dog (with any collar you want) and, while keeping the leash *loose,* try to choke *your dog.

Ever tried to put the choke collar round your own neck and proceed exactly as when you give the dog a correction?
Let me know how that works out for you, 'kay? Note: It is impossible to administer a proper leash correction ... sound distraction (a "tap on the shoulder" to signal to the dog that what he just did was unacceptable, etc.)

If all you want is to use a sound distraction, why do you need a slip collar in the first place? Why not use your own voice, a whistle or a clicker? What exactly does a collar designed to choke do here, when all you need is a sound?
E-collars, too, can be used in exactly that same way (among several other ways).

Yes, among several other ways.
and it must be really convincing in order to force the dog to obey, rather than experience it.

There's no force involved in a collar pop, provided it's executed correctly and *timely.* None. Nada. Zero. Zilch.

> - from:

http://www.sfspca.org/behavior/dog library/choke.pdf
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How often do you see anyone using those necklaces in ... (other than giving the necklace to her as a gift)?

Because words alone apparently scare the crap out of you, Lucy,

"La parole a =E9t=E9 donn=E9e =E0 l'homme pour dissimuler sa pens=E9e", but I think that "La parole a =E9t=E9 donn=E9e =E0 l'homme pour se foutre de la pens=E9e" (attributed by D.I. Suchianu to Tristan Bernard) reflects better the use humans are making of the words the most frequently. Presenting a device created to cause pain as some sort of harmless jewel the purpose of which is only to make a sound is, IMO, to bring to perfection the art of "employing the words in order to mock reason".
which apparently causes your brain to lockup (like the jaws on an eeevil pitbull Emotion: smile)

My little grey cells are STIMULATED by your words, Jack. They are at their best when forced to debate - which they simply love. But - just like the eeevil pitbull - I don't like to let go of my debate partners until they are thoroughly mauled.
I offered you the example of the necklace choker, because you were wondering why one wouldn't use a choke collar unless one intended to actually choke a dog.

What about "causes momentary discomfort", as our friend Janet puts it?
Using that same brilliant logic of yours, and applying it to the necklace choker, it begs the same question, doesn't it?

It doesn't. If you want to mock reason efficiently, you have at least to be creative.
Why would anyone buy someone a choker necklace if the intention wasn't to actually choke that person.

If the choker necklace were designed like a slip collar, then the person receiving it would indeed have some cause to worry, I think.

Lucy
Now what exactly do you think it happens in that brief moment when "you pull on the leash" and "the collar tightens"?

correctly used, a choke collar supplies a sound correction something i would think you would approve of.

shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net >> http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com

It is never too late to give up our prejudices.
Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854
Now what exactly do you think it happens in that brief moment when "you pull on the leash" and "the collar tightens"?

Half-halt!
At all times, except "when you pull on the leash to make a correction".

Since you really don't have Clue One what you're talking about, your attempts to draw conclusions really have little basis in fact.
If all you want is to use a sound distraction, why do you need a slip collar in the first ... or a clicker? What exactly does a collar designed to choke do here, when all you need is a sound?

Could it be that a sound made just behind the dog's ears might have a different effect than a sound made several feet up and to one side?
Just Click Your Heels Together Three Times And Say: "He DID Learn To Control Himself," "He DID Learn To Control Himself," "He DID Learn To Control Himself,"

Fri,Apr 27 2001 1:26 pm
Subject: Re: The myth of "PP"
Hello mary,
How do your dogs learn to distinguish the meaning of "no", as opposed to, say, the meaning of "tapioca"?

Taste and smell come to my mind first.
... Human beings have a conscious...they know whats right and whats wrong.

Right. Dog trainers do not HAVE HIGHER CONSCIOUSNESS or they wouldn't inflict pain on inferior beings to educate them... WOULD THEY, mary
So, that MEANS they hurt dogs because 1) they don't know any freaking better, or 2) they WANT to HURT dogs to prove their superiority over them... Bye Thugs!
That's not hard-wired, it's learned.

INDEED. It's taught to us by DOG TRAINERS who aren't bright enough to outwit the cunning of the domestic puppy dog and NEED to inflict pain to enforce their will and prove their superiority over the dog.
Appealing to a 2-yr old's sense of ethics is a frustrating and ultimately useless procedure.

As bleak as trying to discuss NOT HURTING DOGS with our Thugs who earn their living jerking and choking and shocking and twisting and pinching dog's ears, toes, and testicles and beating dogs with sticks to MOTIVATE them?
HARDLY. A two year old wouldn't keep trying to make excuses for their inappropriate behavior. They'd just kick and scream like our lying, dog abusing Thugs.
I've misunderstood PP, can we compromise with MP "Mostly Positive" ? :-)

As long as you understand that "MP" includes pretty much everyone here,

Yes, mary. Everybody uses some positive motivation. Your pal lyingfrosty dahl uses a 30-40" Hickory stick. You withold infliction of pain, as a positive motivator. You'll do or say anything to diminish culpability for being a dog abusing Thug.
and is therefore useless as a subgroup label.

Hurting dogs in any manner or confronting dogs in any manner is useless in dog training.
Got it, mary?
Anyone who wants can answer this one..if PP doesn't work, ... so well..why do most people >come here asking for help?

Because what works requires a combination of experience, skill, and attentiveness that many people have not acquired.

You mean you GOTTA KNOW HOWE TO INFLICT PAIN PROPERLY?
Misunderstanding and misapplication of the various techniques devised to communicate our wishes to our companions

You mean like the choke, pronged choke, shock collars, and Hickory switches? Yes, talk to us about communication. steve boyer likes to communicate with dogs by slapping them around, he says it's a language they UNDERSTAND. You LIKE to HURT dogs, mary. Don't you? Or else you WOULDN'T HURT DOGS because we've proven it isn't NECESSARY or APPROPRIATE to HURT dogs to train them mary.
ISN'T THAT CORRECT, mary.
conclude with unacceptable or unexpected results.

Like turning a dog vicious from jerking, choking, and shocking him, mary?
See "interested in hearing."
Others said that the dog should be put on a "down" because in that position very few dogs bark.

BUNK. They're shooting off their mouths again with no awarness of what they're saying.
They've never met my dogs, then.

That's nice, mary.
Sam can (and will) bark while fully prone. A favorite trick around here is to bark with a mouth full of tennis ball or stuffed toy. Jack doesn't usually start to bark until he's run and grabbed up a toy.

Now, instead of saying "OFF" or whatever when the barking ... boy, that's just the mailman. That's enough, now, good boy."

Yep.

Yep? As in "yep. I'm not impressed. I'm gonna make my dogs shut up or they'll pay the consequences?" Right mary?
That certainly works, and it sure wasn't an idea that originated with ninnyboy. I use "thank you" and "that'll do".

Thank you mary, that'll do.
I picked that up from someone here about 1993 or '94.

Good for you. And thanks for sharing everything you know with us.
Mary H. & the Ames National Zoo: Raise a Fund ("Regis"); ANZ Sam-I-Am, CGC; ANZ Noah Doll, CGC; ANZ Babylon Ranger, CGC; ANZ MarmaDUKE felines, finches and a fish

You're a hypocrite, mary. Bye!
Your pal, Jerry "The PHONY," Howe. j;~}
"n fact, a good trainer works very hard to prevent any choking action from taking place"
What strikes me about this whole thread is that by jumping into the depths of the collar wars, we have completely avoided any talk about training whatsoever. FWIW, the key to the dominant aggressive dog I mentioned was not allowing him to forge and having him sit slightly behind heel on halts. His focus was physical domination (human and canine) and that little reasserting of space control was all it took to refocus him in both arenas. The freaking collar used had nothing at all to do with finding the best approach for that dog and people who can't get beyond that fact are going to be doomed to be no more than mediocre handwringers over their timid personal pets. Period.