re: Collars page 5

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Why, yes, he is the crazy one. Glad you finally noticed.
CC (rewards & praise) works just fine with fear aggressive dogs. It's a reinforcer, not a conditioner, with a dominant aggressive dog. And of course CC techniques involve praise. I didn't mention it because I
thought I was talking to folks who knew WTF they were talking about.

Lynn K.
Jack, you would have loved a seminar I was at recently where the limitations of clicker training were discussed. Lori ... being useless for chained sequences because it directs the dog back to the handler in the middle of the sequence.

Actually clicker training can be extremely effective for chained sequences, however, the best way to use it in such sequences is through backchaining.

But there are also real and valid instances of properly timed clicks working extremely well even when it does "pull" the dog out of the desired position. Say you want to click entries to weave poles. And you click AS the dog's nose goes between the first and second pole. The dog may then pop out of the poles to come get a click, but if you have timed your click correctly that will not hinder the dog's ability to do an entire set of poles. I myself actually don't click poles but I've seen it done very successfully. Timing is critical in clicker training, which is the biggest reason why it is not always successful people with lousy timing clicking the wrong action.
But she also pointed out something so simply
obvious that rang a bell with me - in any behavior where the goal is handler attention, the clicker redirects attention to the treat rather than the handler. Bingo.

Sorry, and you know I respect you greatly, but no. Not if the clicker was properly trained. A click means the dog has ACCOMPLISHED the desired goal. If the goal is handler attention and you click while the dog has the greatest attention, then you have marked the attention with a click, telling the dog that the attention is the desired goal. The treat is the primary reinforcer, but the dog very soon understands that in order to get another click he must again offer handler attention.
I do agree that clicker training, just like any other training, has problems. However, you admitted in your first dog that the dog in question was being rewarded for the wrong things. That would happen whether or not the dog was being clicked or not bad training is bad training!
Jack, you would have loved a seminar I was at ... redirects attention to the treat rather than the handler. Bingo.

Very interesting! It's exactly what Jerry has been saying all along when speaking of the disadvantages of clicker training, but hey, he's the crazy one, right?

No, he doesn't understand clicker training. Anyone who feels that clicker training is treat-pushing bribery doesn't understand the tool. Unfortunately too many people who actually use it don't understand it either.

Robin (who uses clickers, operant principles, prong collars, and whatever else works)
You're right - it's always handler timing. It would be more appropriate to say that far too often the handler distracts from the goal by c/t. A good example would be working on eye contact throughout a recall and clicking mid distance - the c/t distracts from the goal in that example.
Maybe, when dogs are barking at us, they are doing what some people do when they encounter someone who doesn't speak their language. Talk louder and slower. I bet when dogs are barking at us, they are saying: I..CAN'T..UNDERSTAND..YOU!! DO...YOU...SPEAK...DOG???

Now that's a good one.

Diane Blackman
http://dog-play.com /
http://dogplay.com/Shop/dogplayshop.htm
It's all done with mirrors. What's a Wizard without his mirror? Wait! Do you suppose he's confused his monitor screen for a mirror?

Or, perhaps, vice versa.
You're right - it's always handler timing. It would be more appropriate to say that far too often the handler ... on eye contact throughout a recall and clicking mid distance - the c/t distracts from the goal in that example.

Yes. And in a counter example, if you are trying to click good weaves and you click just as the dog looks at you, you've just rewarded the dog for looking at you in the weaves which is not what you want.
All good dog training relies on timing and patience. Clicker training also demands the ability to see and reward tiny movements and nuance. And more patience than many people are prepared to give it's hard to just stand there silently and have the dog figure something out rather than luring or physically shaping.
Jack, you would have loved a seminar I was at ... redirects attention to the treat rather than the handler. Bingo.

Very interesting! It's exactly what Jerry has been saying all along when speaking of the disadvantages of clicker training, but hey, he's the crazy one, right?

Right. About as NUTSO as they come.
Unfortunately, no one with an IQ larger than his waist size ever reads anything Jerry says.
I repeat: Because he's NUTSO, and because he treats people like "po's" dog treats other people's lawns.
Have you ever heard of the Infinite Monkey Theorem?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite monkey theorem

Well, it hypothesizes that an infinite number of monkeys typing for an infinite amount of time will produce a given text, e.g., the collected works of William Shakespeare, etc.
So it's entirely possible that even a dumb little *** like Jerry Howe will eventually type something that's right (although I'd bet on the monkeys first). He's sure been at it long enough.

Lucy, all training methods have advantages and disadvantages. And the best trainers know when and how to use the right tool for the right JOB, so that the tool's advantages (e.g., speed) can be leveraged and its disadvantages (e.g., degree of difficulty) mitigated.
Clicker training is absolutely the right tool for many trainers, and for many dogs, depending on the OBJECTIVES of the training/trainer.

IMO, more dogs' lives are lost each year to the hard-headedness of these OTP trainers(One Trick Ponies) than are lost to speeding SUVs.

One Trick Ponies.

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to reply by e-mail
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