re: Collars page 7

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Jerry says that offering food bribes to an aggressive dog makes him more aggressive, remember?

Then he's using food improperly; your use of "bribe" implies that you may have already known this.

Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
That would happen whether or not the dog was being clicked or not bad training is bad training!

Yeah, what she said. PS: That is officially the last time that I'm agreeing with you this year, Robin. Enough is enough!

Good! We might give each other cooties or something!
()

Robin (who uses clickers, operant principles, prong collars, and whatever else works)

Atta girl!

Gee Jack, that's twice. Are you ill? Elitist? What? \
Actually clicker training can be extremely effective for chained sequences,
however, the best way to use it in such sequences is through backchaining.

Ya know, I kind of mangled the point she was trying to make - that people mistime the c/t because they forget that it causes a recall to handler. They start to use it to encourage or mean Keep Going - totally in conflict with how the dog responds to it.
Actually clicker training can be extremely effective for chained sequences, however, the best way to use it in such sequences ... to use it to encourage or mean Keep Going - totally in conflict with how the dog responds to it.

Oh yeah. Using the click as a KGS just doesn't work. All it tells the dog is that sometimes the click means a reward and sometimes it doesn't. I know some really talented people who are using the clicker as a bridge, but I don't understand how they're doing it. Generally, I use the clicker in its pure form. The click marks the desired response, and that's followed by a treat in other words, the click ends the behavior.
However, it's best to click and treat in close proximity. You want to be careful to not reinforce undesired behaviors between the click and treat. Some people used to say that you could take up to 30 seconds to treat after the click which is ludicrous. By that time the dog is totally somewhere else and is not associating the treat with the click.
Generally I use clicking for stationary or near-stationary positional behaviors (sit, down, front, finish, 2-on 2-off contacts, targeting, etc.). I use toys and drive work for motion behaviors (recalls, weaves, heeling, etc.) I also don't shape much with clickers Viva doesn't offer behaviors because she was punished for it early in life. Cala I just got lazy with, though I will say that her best default behavior, the heads-down down, was purely clicker shaped.
Date: 21 Jun 2005 10:13:14 -0700
Subject: Re: Collars
It's all done with mirrors. What's a Wizard without his mirror? Wait! Do you suppose he's confused his monitor screen for a mirror?
Lynn K.

Date: 21 Jun 2005 09:23:14 -0700
Subject: Re: Collars
Jack, you would have loved a seminar I was at recently where the limitations of clicker training were discussed. Lori Drouin is a great trainer, uses food, clickers, positive reinforcement primarily - but she is also a realist.

We were working on extended uses of tools and she pointed out the obvious about the click/treat being useless for chained sequences because it directs the dog back to the handler in the middle of the sequence.
But she also pointed out something so simply obvious that rang a bell with me - in any behavior where the goal is handler attention, the clicker redirects attention to the treat rather than the handler. Bingo.
Lynn K.

Date: 21 Jun 2005 22:01:47 -0700
Subject: Re: Collars
Actually clicker training can be extremely effective for chained sequences, however, the best way to use it in such sequences is through backchaining.

Ya know, I kind of mangled the point she was trying to make - that people mistime the c/t because they forget that it causes a recall to handler.
They start to use it to encourage or mean Keep Going - totally in conflict with how the dog responds to it.

Date: 21 Jun 2005 12:56:29 -0700
Subject: Re: Collars
CC (rewards & praise) works just fine with fear aggressive dogs. It's a reinforcer, not a conditioner, with a dominant aggressive dog.
And of course CC techniques involve praise.
I didn't mention it because I thought I was talking to folks who knew WTF they were talking about.
Lynn K.

Date: 21 Jun 2005 12:52:37 -0700
Subject: Re: Collars
Why, yes, he is the crazy one. Glad you finally noticed.
glad to see you back HJM

Thanks, Beth!
But I haven't really been away, just very, very busy.

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to reply by e-mail
()
Atta girl!

Gee Jack, that's twice. Are you ill? Elitist? What?

Just an old pragmatist who cares more about dogs than style.

Handsome Jack Morrison is to elite what Mexican bulls are to flapping red capes.

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to reply by e-mail
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