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Okay, this is the third time I've explained this. It's the last time, so everybody listen up, k? :} It ... dog to *do* anything, but it prevents him from learning things the human later has to train him out of.

Sorry, doesn't fly. That "training" scenario only works if the dog would be guaranteed to acquire a bad habit specifically because he wasn't crated. There are some dogs who, if never crated, never acquire any bad habits either. And it presumes that if you crate, the dog can't acquire those bad habit any other time. So the crate doesn't TRAIN anything.

The crate provides a safe environment for the dog in a lot of different scenarios. About all you can train the dog in the crate for is how to be comfy and quiet in the crate. That's it. If you want to train the dog not to have bad habits, train it not to have bad habits. The crate isn't going to train it to do anything but stay in the crate.
Gotta be a semantics thing. What you call a passive training tool I call a management tool.


I'll go with that.
Actually, the original question was basically "how does a crate train a dog to be trustworthy in the house?" My answer (3 times :} was that it doesn't train the dog to *do* anything, but it prevents him from developing bad habits that later have to be trained out of him.
Somehow or other it turned into whether or not a crate was a "training tool."

Yea, semantics. And I guess that calling it a "management tool" is actually more accurate than calling it a "passive training tool."

Okay, let me rephrase the whole thing then. A crate is a management tool that is invaluable to the training process by preventing common training problems.

And the statement (I forget who said it) that the crate has nothing to do with training a dog to be trustworthy in a house is false. It has a lot to do with it, even if it's by the use of management.
Okay? Is that more easily understood?
It's probably me. I'm very tired and distracted today.

Canine Action Dog Trainer
http://www.canineaction.com
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Name three. :}
Seriously, what new untrained, unhousebroken puppies do you know who would not pee on the floor and chew things if they were given the run of the house when alone? It is as close to a guarantee that you're going to get.

And I never said that all dogs needed to be crated. I never crated Murphy and MacKenzie. They were adults when I got them, and apparently housetrained. They just had to generalize it to my house, which happened quickly. I could have prevented a couple of wet spots on my rug if I had crated them, but they were basically well-behaved in the house. I have had them in crates at times, but not specifically when they were left alone in the house.

And it presumes that if you crate, the dog can't acquire
those bad habit any other time. So the crate doesn't TRAIN anything.

That's why the crate is used when the human isn't supervising. Of course, if the pup is let out of the crate and not watched, he's still going to pee on the floor and chew things. Since I have stressed many times that a crate should be used when there is no human supervision, I thought it was self-explanatory that when the crate was not being used, the human was supervising. And hopefully training, but also by preventing mistakes - interrupting them and offering alternate appropriate behaviors.
Canine Action Dog Trainer
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My Kids, My Students, My Life:
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Okay, let me rephrase the whole thing then. A crate is a management tool that is invaluable to the training process by preventing common training problems.

And it can also be an invaluable tool to keep both the owner and the dog at a retarded level of development, because it prevents resolution of problems which are masked by the cage.
In fact, in America, this is quite often the case.

this is michael
reporting live...
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Ahem. I'm not into black rubber, but I'm open to discussion.

Grey's more your color?
Suja
And it can also be an invaluable tool to keep both the owner and the dog at a retarded level of development, because it prevents resolution of problems which are masked by the cage.

Absolutely. But I was talking about the proper use of it, not misuse.
In fact, in America, this is quite often the case.

In America, as well as everywhere in the world, there are a lot of selfish, irresponsible, uncaring people.
Canine Action Dog Trainer
http://www.canineaction.com
My Kids, My Students, My Life:
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html
And it can also be an invaluable tool to keep ... prevents resolution of problems which are masked by the cage.

Absolutely. But I was talking about the proper use of it, not misuse.

Good. I just don't want to see you get DUPED by
OSAMA BIN LADEN or MICHAEL MOORE or JERRY HOWE.
sheesh.

this is michael
reporting live...
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ain't it? i'm not terribly house proud, but i think ... least, i'd have to paint a floor mural on 'em.

I know of a printmaking co-op which is located on the second floor of an older building. When the founders first started the co-op they realized they needed to put down plywood to help distribute the weight of the presses. So they cut birch plywood sheets into 4' x 4' sections and attached them (can't remember exactly how) to the floor, then put on a clear sealer/finish. The sheets are laid out alternating grain and for a project that is utilitarian in purpose the result is actually very attractive. Now I'm sure that in a smaller space 4' x 4' sheets would look weird but I suppose the plywood could be cut into smaller sections. Anyway from seeing that floor, I think one could be house-proud and have plywood floors.
Chris and her smoothies,
Big Pablo & Little Lucy
Seriously, what new untrained, unhousebroken puppies do you know who would not pee on the floor and chew things if they were given the run of the house when alone?

I dont know anyone who would give "run of house when alone". Plenty are able to be confined to a kitchen, blocked from certain rooms, etc though.
Of course, if the pup is let out of the crate and not watched, he's still going to pee on the floor and chew things.

Maybe. Maybe not. My Golden, although I did crate him initially overnight and when I was at work, was a puppy who I think I could have left free without any incident (assuming a reasonable going out schedule). He wasn't the least bit destructive and had exactly 2 accidents ever. He was always free in the house while I was home, and free overnight at 4 months (as all puppies are, although still contained in the bedroom). even Franklin wasn't a chewer!
Janet Boss
http://bestfriendsdogobedience.com /
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