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While I have no problem with the judicious use of crates, the idea of a dog being crated for 12hrs ... visits are 45 - 60m) that's a lot of crate time. I would rather see a dog at a kennel.

Yeah, what she said.

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"Tee"

You and gswork are assuming the dog doesn't like being ... the owner is somehow abusing the dog is beyond me.

While I have no problem with the judicious use of crates, the idea of a dog being crated for 12hrs ... visits are 45 - 60m) that's a lot of crate time. I would rather see a dog at a kennel.

Yes but my response to Pat (and gswork) was specifically about the day-to-day crating of a dog and not just rare vacation times as both parties expressed views that this dog shouldn't be crated at all.

Tara
Both my dogs do not jump around in the car. They get in and sit on the seat I don't have any problems with them carrying on. On long trips they both lay down and go to sleep. They listen better than most kids that I know.

Yes I would prefer to crate them I agree it is safer but in situations where the dog gets this stressed it just isn't worth it.

Celeste
Yes I do have experience with a dog who suffers from SA. I had a very destructive doberman many years ago. I got the dog from a freind who's husband had locked him in the basement for 5 months while she was away caring for her dying dad. She begged me to take him and I did. It wasn't easy but with lots of work he got over the SA to the point where he could be trusted to be alone in the house with out having to confine him to just one room.
And no I did not crate him. Instead I worked on diversions to keep him busy and gave him items he was allowed to chew and play with. I also had family check in on him every 3 hours when I was away at work during the day. It wasn't an easy thing to do but locking him up was not an option. This dog had been so abused, beaten, starved & was an emotional wreck. I was not going to put him through more trauma by locking him up in a kennel. Even taking him to the vets to be neutered was an experience. He had to be drugged and allowed to fall asleep long before being put in the kennel because he became so upset when they tried to first put him in it.

Celeste
My dogs don't ever go to any kennels for boarding. They go to family members when I have to leave town and can not take them with me or when I have to go to the hospital.
They don't go to the groomer. I take care of the grooming myself.
As for the vets both of them feel comfortable at the vets they go to. There is no stress on either dog and they behave. Barney is the only one who ever has to stay over night. The difference in his demeaner is like night and day at the vets than when he is with me. Barney is mommys boy and stays with me every step of the way where ever I go. I don't move from room to room with out him following.

So when at home when I try to put him in a crate he goes nuts. Where as at the vets when Sandy puts him in the crate he goes willingly. He knows what a crate is and obviously feel safe at the vets in it but will have no part of it at home. But the second I walk in to pick him up he is causing a ruckus to get out of there ASAP.

He is 11 and has medical problems and it's just not worth fighting with him and making his life miserable over it. I have never had him destroy any furniture or chew on anything he wasn't allowed. From the first day I got him he has been lavished with toys to no end. There are tons of his toys to play with and he knows what is his and what is not. Neither Barney or Brandy have any seperation anxiety and can be fully trusted alone at home. I worked long and hard on training them both to learn what was right and what was wrong. The only problem we are still working on over coming is that Brandy is afraid of Thunder and slowly she is getting to understand that it's only noise.
Celeste
I understand the common misconception that crates are inhumane.Before I understood dogs as well as I do now, I used ... of a doubt that crates are a very valuable tool,pretty close to mandatory, and can actually enhance a dog's life.

Hi Leah ,
They can be a handy tool if used correctly but your last sentence , not sure about the mandatory bit and enhancing a dog's life. Perhaps for some dogs but for a majority of dogs they're not necessary . Alison
While I have no problem with the judicious use of crates, the ideaof a dog

being crated for 12hrs or so at a time with only an hour breakbothers me. It really doesn't seem healthy. ... And mostvisits are 45 - 60m) that's a lot of crate time. I would rather see a dog at akennel.

The worst thing is that there are dogs out there that are kept crated daily for 10- 12 hours withouta break and young puppies for long periods too.Emotion: sad
Alison
Hi Leah , They can be a handy tool if used correctly but your last sentence , not sure about the mandatory bit and enhancing a dog's life. Perhaps for some dogs but for a majority of dogs they're not necessary .

It is time for my story about Cubbe. We got her at a shelter. Her information sheet said that a crate was "no longer necessary." I can only guess that means that her original owners used a crate to help housetrain her and that she was housetrained now and so no longer needed it.
From the instant we got Cubbe home, she chose to lie down under the dining room table. I found that amusing because I'd always heard about dogs that like the security and comfort of being enclosed in a den but had never had a dog that did (all of 2 dogs previous to Cubbe).After about a week, Cubbe, on her own accord, looked at the pullout futon and crawled under it. This is a SMALL space, much smaller than any humane crate. She can't even get up and turn around there without hitting her back against the top. She has to scrunch down to get in, turn around with a bit of acrobatics and lie down in a curl with the nose facing outwards. There is no way I would require a dog to spend even a minute in a space that small, and I'd report anyone who did to animal control.

Cubbe has never been encouraged to go under the futon or rewarded for doing so. So what does she do? She crawls under there every night to sleep, obviously prefers it to sleeping in the other bedroom where there's no under-the-bed space, and hangs out there during the day.
That's not her only place, but it is her preferred one. She'll sleep on the couch if that's warmer or at the bottom of the basement stairs if it is particularly hot, but she likes to be under things for the most part. She'll still be under the dining room table or under the living room couch, places that must be more den-like for her.
I can't explain it, but I would say that a den for Cubbe isn't necessary but that it does enhance her life. She likes enclosed places. She rides in a crate in the car.
Lia
They can be a handy tool if used correctly but your last sentence , not sure about the mandatory bit and enhancing a dog's life. Perhaps for some dogs but for a majority of dogs they're not necessary .

I think it's a cultural thing, Alison. It appears as it if's less common for every member in a household to work and be away from home up to 12 hours a day on your side of the pond. Here it's the normal life mode.

Because I feel just the opposite - perhaps some dogs don't need to be crated, but for a majority of dogs they are necessary.
I'm not talking about "forever." My 3 have the run of the house when I'm not home, and there hasn't been any damage for 2 years. (Unless I forget to put the garbage up. :}
But while a dog is being trained for proper house manners, I don't think you can beat a crate for keeping him safe and out of trouble when there are no humans around to supervise.
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