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Both my dogs do not jump around in the car.

Neither do Rocky or Friday.
They get in and sit on the seat I don't have any problems with them carrying on. On long trips they both lay down and go to sleep. They listen better than most kids that I know.

Cool - so do mine. But I'm a "what if?" kind of person. What if I had an accident? While I've got an air bag to protect me, my dogs, once laying calmly on the rear seats, would be flung all around the place. Such is physics, and accidents *do* happen.
Yes I would prefer to crate them I agree it is safer but in situations where the dog gets this stressed it just isn't worth it.

Yes, crates are a relatively safe way of transporting dogs, your two bad experiences notwithstanding. I don't understand why you'll never consider them again.

Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
You and gswork are assuming the dog doesn't like being crated.

Let's start with that
Dogs are animals descended from wolves, right?
Their behaviour is pretty much as 'natural' as the Wolf, excepting some variations bred into and out of them over the years. In nature a restricted 'den', i.e. one which does not allow for much movement and from which the animal cannot escape means certain death.

So how come dogs are suddenly supposed to 'like' it? It doesn't make sense.
GSWORK actually makes the assumption that the dog is never let out.

Not quite an assumption, but the OP's post certainly looks that way. I did say "Maybe you just didn't paint the right picture in your post, but it
doesn't come over too well!" just in case. Maybe the OP does let the dog walk freely all day, take him for some nice walks and so on. It still looks like the dog spends a long time in a crate.
I think these are harsh assumptions/judgements. If the dog is destructive when left alone then the solution is to crate him or have the house ruined.

Now that's a harsh choice. Dog's being destructive isn't just bad luck is it? Like being born with brown or blue eyes, something 'you just can't help'. Don't dogs become destructive for a reason? The solution then might be something else, something as simple as reducing whatever is stressing the dog.
I suppose you need to look at dogs who are destructive and those who are not, then see what's different about a) the environment and b) the dogs (if anything).
If the dog likes being crated (ie in his den) when left alone then the solution is to keep on crating him. Why this scenario has to be viewed negatively or as though the owner is somehow abusing the dog is beyond me.

That's a difficult one to asnwer and i need to be fair to you. It just seems logically wrong to me to do that to an animal whose entire evolutionary history suggests that being trapped in confined spaces isn't good! (goes for any animal i guess). the den bit is probably sound, nice place to sleep and so on, but then dogs can sleep happy on the carpet too if the house is the den. I guess you could get a really huge crate! May as well have a nice enclosed yard and open up the house to them though.
My 5-6yo Boxer is crated when I'm gone from home. I could put the trashcan away and cover up the pantry where the broken doors are off and she'd be fine but she likes her crate.

Apart from whether we actually know for real when dogs like things, wouldn't she like it some more, if the door was open, and the house was the den for sharing with you. Have you tried that, even with the 'hide the trashcan' thing?

They can be a handy tool if used correctly but ... but for a majority of dogs they're not necessary .

I think it's a cultural thing, Alison. It appears as it if's less common for every member in a household to work and be away from home up to 12 hours a day on your side of the pond. Here it's the normal life mode.

That being the case, maybe it's time to seriously question whether a family who have to be away from the dog for 12 hours a day should have a dog at all.
Rather than force-fit the dog into a lifestyle for which it cannot be suited, should not potential owners look at themselves and seriously assess whether infact they should have a dog at all.

I'm not trying to pick arguments with you, it's a serious point.

Doing that self assessment and knowing when to forego dog ownership would probably resolve a great many 'dog problems' straight off don't you think?
And what if the way he works out this boredom and anxiety is to chew on electrical cords? Or take ... cube in there. He'll have something fun to dothat can't hurt him or destroy your house. Canine Action Dog Trainer

I agree with what you're saying here, but am a bit stymied in my own situation. We do not yet know that our pup would destroy the house if left uncrated, but we are about to start leaving her alone loose on the ground floor for five minutes, then ten, etc. We'll be finding out. Our most likely scenario is a scratched-up front door.
Saskia, at five months now (fawn Dane), does not find her crate stressful, but she is often reluctant to go in because she knows we'll be leaving SOME of the times she's in there and that's what she doesn't like. She does GO in, when we tell her, with a depressed and foot-dragging attitude, and then waits there for a treat and to see if we're going to close the door. But if we leave, no matter what nice treat, toy, or activity we leave with her it remains untouched until we get back.The neighbors say she no longer barks or whines while we're gone, after the first five minutes. We can see for ourselves she sleeps sometimes, when we're gone. When we get back, she acts the same whether it was a half-hour stay or (only once) a six-hour stay; the average is one hour. By "the same way", I mean very happy to see us, but no sign of neurosis or stress. Lots of butt-wiggling, no whining or leaping, plenty of bringing-of-tug-toys and leaning and gazing up at our faces.

But we'd like her to find something about the experience fun enough to distract her from the fact that we're gone, and so far nothing seems to work. Does anyone here have any suggestions not already in this thread about making her LIKE the crate? She clearly sees it as a sort of bed, as her place, but when frightened, for example, she hides behind the coffee table instead of going into the crate, so although it is not associated for her with being a negative place, and although she knows it is hers, it clearly is not a refuge, it's more like a giant toy that sometimes contains her.

Maybe add a roof? I've read that dogs are often happier if they can't see through the top of the crate.
Saskia doesn't hate the crate and will go in and sleep when we're home, just to lie in there. She will put her toys into it and take them out. She walks in on her own when we tell her to. Sometimes we go through some of the pre-leaving steps without leaving, like taking her collar off for a few hours or asking her to lie down in the crate and then shutting the door, so she doesn't associate it with always being left alone. We leave the TV on low when we go, usually Euronews or some other channel with mostly talking.

We also do not make a big deal out of coming or going. She sleeps upstairs with us, and we are about to start making sure that happens on a dog bed (already up there; she uses it frequently) rather than on our bed. We can't just keep the crate up there and get her used to using that all night because she's a growing Dane and shouldn't use the stairs a lot, and if it was up there we'd have to take her up and down every time we went out without her.

Still, that idea seems the most likely to work it also eliminates an in-her-face departure and arrival on our part and makes her have to be aware for two or three minutes that we're home without her being let out, so she can prep herself. On the other hand, it doesn't allow her a view of the small garden, but she could watch the sky, and she likes that too. Maybe we really will build the stairs out into a series of shallow ramps...
We'd like to start leaving her in the house as a whole (well, the ground floor), but since she hates being left alone we'd like her to be a little less upset about that in the first place, and since she's being crated anyway it would be nice if this could double as an opportunity to achieve that. Then we could start leaving the door open sometimes and not others and eventually graduate to never closing it.
Thanks for any suggestions,
Yes I do have experience with a dog who suffers from SA.

are you sure? from your meager description, it sounds much more like confinement anxiety than SA.
with lots of work he got over the SA to the point where he could be trusted to be alone in the house with out having to confine him to just one room.

that doesn't answer the question, though. what would you have done if he'd eaten through the walls, floor, or door? i had a dog who pulled the bathroom door off its frame, along with a big section of the door jamb. she broke out several windows to escape the house.
And no I did not crate him. Instead I worked on diversions to keep him busy and gave him items he was allowed to chew and play with.

what if those diversions hadn't mattered to him? sometimes SA is so severe that the dog is beyond mere distractions.
I also had family check in on him every 3 hours when I was away at work during the day.

three hours is plenty of time for a dog to get into serious trouble.
It wasn't an easy thing to do but locking him up was not an option. This dog had been so abused, beaten, starved & was an emotional wreck.

funny, so was my current dog. as soon as i got her, i started working on teaching her that her crate was a safe haven.
I was not going to put him through more trauma by locking him up in a kennel.

that's where your argument goes off the rails. crating is not "locking a dog up in a kennel."
Even taking him to the vets to be neutered was an experience. He had to be drugged and allowed to fall asleep long before being put in the kennel because he became so upset when they tried to first put him in it.

teaching harriet that her crate is a Very Good Place saved her from that trauma. of all the things i've worked on with her, i think crate training has made the most positive impact on her quality of life.

shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
Both my dogs do not jump around in the car. They get in and sit on the seat I don't ... On long trips they both lay down and go to sleep. They listen better than most kids that I know.

what would you do if you were pulled over by the police for some reason? there was a case last year where a family's dog was shot and killed by police because it jumped out of the car when they were pulled over. restraining your dog in the car, either in a crate or in a harness and seat belt, is important for your dog's safety. it's also important for your safety. if you're in a wreck, your dog will become a projectile. it could not only harm or kill you, but could be ejected from the car and killed.
Yes I would prefer to crate them I agree it is safer but in situations where the dog gets this stressed it just isn't worth it.

proper training would give your dog the skills to handle being crated or restrained in a harness and seat belt. like i said, ensuring my pets' safety is my number one job. if i can't do that, i've got no business having pets.

shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
Such is physics, and accidents *do* happen.

yep. the dog could be hurt, or worse, could hit and hurt or kill you. having a wreck is bad enough without having two 50+lb projectiles hurtling at me at 60mph.

shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
So when at home when I try to put him in a crate he goes nuts. Where as at the vets when Sandy puts him in the crate he goes willingly.

then it seems pretty clear that the problem is not with the dog but with the handler.

shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
I think the majority of dogs learn to "tolerate" the crate rather than like it though I have seen some dogs who seemed to take comfort in their crate quite a bit. For example, when you pick up your dogs leash you get an extremely happy emotional response..when you ask your pup to go in the crate do you get the same response? And for some dogs the crate has become a cue for your departure. I imagine this would create a bit a stress.
I have two dogs and do not own a crate yet both have been crate trained. They would tolerate a crate if I used it. My oldest dog who I had since a pup was graduated out of the crate at 51/2 months without any damage/destruction, etc. My other dog was adopted at 4 years and gradual freedom when alone was accomplised quickly. Had i come home to damage I would address that problem...are they getting enough exercise/stimulation? Do they have a behavior problem such as SA or is it merely barrier frustration? My goal is to create a confident, obedient, well adjusted pet as soon as possible.

i have never had to leave a dog in a crate for two years. I have slowly increased the dogs freedom when gone in small increments to set my pet up for success. I think too many people go from the using the crate for an 8 hour day to complete freedom. You are changing the rules too fast. Gradual freedom is better. If you encounter a problem along the way...address it. Though I think for JQP it is easier to leave a dog in the crate for 2 years rather than increase exercise/stimulation or treat a behavior problem.

SA is seriously easy to treat if addressed early. Boredom/ lack of stimulation and exercise is easy to treat as well.

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