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Rather than force-fit the dog into a lifestyle for which it cannot be suited, should not potential owners look at themselves and seriously assess whether infact they should have a dog at all.

of course. but the wonderful thing about dogs is that they are endlessly adaptable.
i work 40 hours a week, but that leaves 120+ hours that i'm home. during that time, i'm pretty much at my dogs' disposal. i've made a commitment to make sure that the time i have to spend with them is good quality time. i think that makes a huge difference.
on the other hand, there are plenty of homes where there is someone present nearly 24/7, but the dogs don't get any real attention beyond food and water and the occasional walk. i'd rather see a dog in a home like mine than in a home where they will be pretty much ignored.

shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
Cool - so do mine. But I'm a "what if?" kind of person. What if I had an accident? While ... laying calmly on the rear seats, would be flung all around the place. Such is physics, and accidents *do* happen.[/nq]Yep, I had a demo of this just last night. Driving along a fairly built up, suburban street, and a full grown doe ran into my car. Swear to doG, she came out of the ditch and hit me full speed right in the passenger door. I was going maybe 40 mph. Of course I slammed on the brakes and I did manage to come to a stop. She was dazed, I thought critically hurt, but managed to get up after awhile (last seen walking away a bit usteadily, I don't know if she made it).

Damage to my car somewhat serious to the passenger door I can't open it all the way, and my passenger sidelights are out. I only had one dog with me, Cala. But both crates had been shoved forward over 2 feet, and they're jammed across the back fairly tightly. If Cala had been loose, she would have hit the windshield.
Three years ago, a woman pulled out in front of me. Again, dog in car, crates slid forward. My car was totalled, Viva was fine. Crates are an essential safety tool for cars with dogs!
You and gswork are assuming the dog doesn't like being crated.

Let's start with that Dogs are animals descended from wolves, right? Their behaviour is pretty much as 'natural' as the ... 'den', i.e. one which does not allow for much movement and from which the animal cannot escape means certain death.

But wolves (who are pretty far from dogs BTW, like maybe 100,000 years) ARE denning animals. They excavate and use dens. Bitches whelp in dens. Obviously they DO feel small, dark, enclosed spaces are quite safe, especially since nothing can fit into their den that they can't kill.
That's a difficult one to asnwer and i need to be fair to you. It just seems logically wrong to me to do that to an animal whose entire evolutionary history suggests that being trapped in confined spaces isn't good!

YOu don't understand canine evolution obviously.
I think the majority of dogs learn to "tolerate" the crate rather thanlike it though I have seen some dogs ... for some dogs the crate has becomea cue for your departure. I imagine this would create a bit a stress.

We accept that she may never really like it, as she does walks or toys, but we hope she can get over the SA (and it does seem to be mild SA, which Danes are prone to) enough to at least play with a toy or chew on a stuffed Kong while we're gone surely that would help her deal with the SA better than just sitting there staring after us or moping. We suspect either of these latter two, when she doesn't appear to have been asleep.

That last point, though, we're working on avoiding by having her go in at other times, etc. and treating for that randomly. We used to always give her a tasty chewy when we left but figured out that she had figured out that she only got those when we left, so we don't do that anymore she never ate them anyway. Now we just slip them to her now and then when she seems to really want to chew and be bored with her bone, her Nylabone, and her Kong.
I have two dogs and do not own a crate yet both have been crate trained. They would tolerate a ... dog who I had since a pup was graduated out of the crate at 51/2 months without any damage/destruction, etc.[/nq]Saskia is 5 months old today. We're hoping that by the time she is 8 months old, when our baby will be born, we can count on her to behave alone, but at the moment she is exhibiting classic mild SA behaviors, which are gradually going away with diligence on our part she's stopped leaping up from a sound sleep to bark at the stairs when we leave her alone downstairs, for example, and if she's awake when we vacate the room will often just sit on the sofa staring up the stairs until we come back.

This is a great improvement. Likewise she looks out the window nowadays instead of trying to take the front door down if we go into the tiny front garden, which is unfenced so for the moment she has to be on the lead or in the house when we go out there.If we're gone (from the room) too long, though say, 20 minutes she'll pick up something comforting, like one of my husband's slippers, or the pillow off my computer chair, and gently chew the edges ragged. We have never, thank goodness, seen her show intest in anything dangerous, like electrical cords, but she does like to chew wood, and so far the furniture (which belongs to the landlord, but of course we're willing to pay for it rather than crate her for life) is intact but this is something we need to really watch, I think, when we start leaving her outside the crate while we're gone.

Right now, if we're upstairs a lot we can hear the tags on her collar if she starts moving around a lot, and we check on her. 80% of the time, she's just come to the foot of the stairs with a toy and is staring forlornly upward, but that other 20% she's sought out something that smells like one of us and is comforting herself by taking it apart.
My goal is to create a confident, obedient, well adjusted pet as soon as possible.

Ours too. We were hesitant to get a crate at all, having had dogs without ever having crates all our lives until the 11-year immigration dogless saga that finally resulted in having a house again suitable for a dog, but after talking it over with many people we decided that because the ground floor is basically one giant room and a very tiny bathroom it would be best to get a (huge!) crate (she's growing into it now) and work as quickly as possible at making it unnecessary. She's learning she hasn't tried to chew on a houseplant since she was 10 weeks old, for example.
Though I think for JQP it is easier to leave a dog in the crate for 2 years rather than increase exercise/stimulation or treat a behavior problem.

JQP has a strong tendency to annoy me with this sort of thing. Like children on leashes or plugged into TV to avoid having to actually parent, or people who declaw cats rather than spend the time teaching them what not to shred. If something isn't worth the bother to do right, one shouldn't try to do it at all especially where living, thinking, feeling things are involved.
SA is seriously easy to treat if addressed early.

We're working on it.
Boredom/ lack of stimulation and exercise is easy to treat as well. B

True... but Danes are so easily bored and Saskia is so smart, we're thinking we're probably going to have to resort to eventually building her some sort of activity center, with interesting noises and smells and hidden treat chambers and rotating bits and swinging bits and God knows what all.. She's worth it! Or maybe she should have a pet of her own... she loves watching birds and fish. Maybe we'll get her a goldfish in an unbreakable, inaccesable bowl. That one's mostly a joke, but she does so love to look down into the canal and watch the carp, or stare at the magpies and blackbirds and ringneck parakeets when they're flying over that it's atempting idea. Maybe one of those Japanese electronic dogs...

Katrina
For example, when you pick up your dogs leash you get an
extremely happy emotional response..when you ask your pup to go in the crate do you get the same response? And for some dogs the crate has become a cue for your departure. I imagine this would create a bit a stress.[/nq]Not always. Every puppy I've had here has gone FLYING into the crate when I pick up my keys. The command "crate" gets that as well. There is ALWAYS a food reward for doing that. Ive had puppies way ahead of me up the stairs to go to the bedtime crate and get their treat (I onnly crate overnight until 4 months, so these are young puppies who've learned the drill really quickly). Even Franklin, who initially hated being left in a crate, would fly into it on command, and nap in it at times when I was home.

As an adult, he will crate himself automatically after flyball runs (as does Lucy), from a distance. Lucy has routinely trotted out of the racing building, across a field, and to the car, hopping into her crate. I have forgotten to close the door (let alone latch it) and yet she stays in there. Stress? I don't think so.
I have two dogs and do not own a crate >yet both have been crate trained.

Too bad, because it's a safe way for them to ride in the car. I guess you don't participate in any organized dog activities?
Janet Boss
http://bestfriendsdogobedience.com /
this is my problem. i know my pit bull would go through a window if i left her home alone. she's bouncing off the back window and screaming if i take the trash out and leave her in. but after seven months now of crating her, she doesn't wig out when i leave her in her crate and go to work.
she gets crated twice a day for mealtimes as well (so that my ancient SA and confinement-anxiety poodle can eat her meals without them being scarfed up by pig dog.)
i know luce can be destructive. two weeks ago i boarded her where i work and she chewed a foot tall hole in a chain link fence in an outside run (that's not a dog, that's a tyrannasaurus!). it doesn't take much imagination for me to see her eating a door or a wall or a floor or whatever.
the crate works very well for her. she goes in it without a fuss. she always gets marvelous yummies. she'll sleep in there when i'm home.

my old poodle on the other hand is ten times worse in the crate. she barks and bangs around, so i leave her loose with a diaper on to catch the anxiety-poop. but i don't have to worry too much about her. she doesn't have enough teeth left to eat walls Emotion: wink
also with a pit bull, my two dogs cannot be left alone together. not crating is not an option.

blogging for pit bull rescue
project-blog july 24, 2004.
http://shattering.org
crates had been shoved forward over 2 feet, and they're jammed across the back fairly tightly. If Cala had been ... crates slid forward. My car was totalled, Viva was fine. Crates are an essential safety tool for cars with dogs!

Agreed! My crates fit very snugly behind the back seats of the car - no sliding possible. Do yours not fit there?
Janet Boss
http://bestfriendsdogobedience.com /
Not always. Every puppy I've had here has gone FLYING into the crate when I pick up my keys. The ... their treat (I onnly crate overnight until 4 months, so these are young puppies who've learned the drill really quickly).

Indeed and then long after the drill is over lots of dogs will continue to bed
up in the crate.
snipped:

I have two dogs and do not own a crate >yet both have been crate trained.

Too bad, because it's a safe way for them to ride in the car. I guess you don't participate in any organized dog activities? Janet Boss http://bestfriendsdogobedience.com /

I prefer crates. The seatbelt I bought several years ago for Blade just wasn't that functional. But I am sure there are some really good ones out there. For me crates are the way to go. I have one in my SUV that is permanant fixture and it basically part of the car.

Gwen
crates had been shoved forward over 2 feet, and they're ... Crates are an essential safety tool for cars with dogs!

Agreed! My crates fit very snugly behind the back seats of the car - no sliding possible. Do yours not fit there? Janet Boss http://bestfriendsdogobedience.com /

So do mine. And mine never slide around anywhere in the vehicle.

Now the downside is if I were badly rear ended the dogs may not come out as good.
I guess there are pluses and minuses to lots of things.

Gwen
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