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... Ive had puppies way ahead of me up the stairs to go to the bedtime crate and get their treat (I onnly crate overnight until 4 months, so these are young puppies who've learned the drill really quickly).

Noah, bless him, was a persistent creature of habit. When I first got him, I not only crated him, but I put him "to bed" earlier than Sam (so that Sam and I got some "alone time"). Well, Noah's mental flexibility was never very good; when I tried to let him stay up "late" with the grownups , he'd be an absolute pest until I crated him. He wouldn't just wander off to the bedroom and curl up in his crate, everything had to be Just The Way It Always Was.
I haven't crated Ranger in the house since Noah died. I haven't crated Duke since ... well, since Noah died and Duke moved up from the basement. (Ranger's going with me to my folks' for Thanksgiving, which should prove interesting. In some ways, he's easier than Sam, but we'll have to work on the "kennel up" command before we go.)
Then you obviously did not properly crate train your dogs. Dogs should never perceive their crates as something negative, at least not after the first few days/weeks of adjustment. Correctly used, most of them fairly quickly learn to enjoy their little "safe places."

Not saying that's the case here, but some dogs never quite get it. Khan is crate trained. From what her previous owner said, Pan cannot be crated. When she tried, she'd come home to find the crate turned on its side, the dog shaking and drooling, and occasionally bleeding from trying to break out of it. And this was while she was on Clomicalm. The length of time she was left in it didn't matter, because she managed to fling herself (and her crate) about as soon as her owner left. I have no idea what we'll do if Pan has to stay over at the vet, but my guess is that it will involve sedation. Probably wouldn't matter if she were good in a crate, because she has a really hard time handling being without either me or Khan.
The crate did not help with her SA, and she was much worse in it than out (in comparison of course, because she didn't hurt herself while left uncrated). Just FYI, because you know that I'm far from being anti-crate training.
Suja
Not saying that's the case here, but some dogs never quite get it. Khan is crate trained. From what her ... she were good in a crate, because she has a really hard time handling being without either me or Khan.

Blade likes the crate. But he will tear them apart if given half of a chance. The only time
he minds being in one is when he knows we are outside doing something he wants to
do. Then he has torn more doors off of more types of crates then I care to mention.
Strangely in strange places like cabins, cottages and small motels he isn't bothered at
all by them. Though we do place a bungee cord around it and we do use a quick link
on the door in several places. He has never been bleeding but I am sure one of his
broken teeth came from the crate.
And then there is the fence. He couldn't even begin to be boarded where they use
a chainlink type fencing material as he would pull right out of it. I have seen him stretch
chainlink fence until he can get his body through. The dog is a freight train.
Gwen
crates had been shoved forward over 2 feet, and they're ... Crates are an essential safety tool for cars with dogs!

Agreed! My crates fit very snugly behind the back seats of the car - no sliding possible. Do yours not fit there?

I don't have the back seats in, so basically there was empty space from the crates to the back of my seat. The 93 grand caravans are pretty darn big too. I alternate between having them facing the back end and sideways facing the sliding door (my van only has one).
Agreed! My crates fit very snugly behind the back seats of the car - no sliding possible. Do yours not fit there?

I don't have the back seats in, so basically there was empty space from the crates to the back of ... I alternate between having them facing the back end and sideways facing the sliding door (my van only has one).

Can you not bungee rope the crates so they can't move around? If not I would think it would be fairly easy to do that drilling holes and making something to bungee rope too.
Gwen
Can you not bungee rope the crates so they can't move around? If not I would think it would be fairly easy to do that drilling holes and making something to bungee rope too.

Well they were bungeed together but not bolted to the floor. I'm probably going to switch them again so they are facing out the passenger door. I actually prefer that, but I'd had them switched around for a recent trip with two other dogs in the car. And bungees really aren't the best anyway you need cargo straps. Bungees stretch too much.
Can you not bungee rope the crates so they can't ... that drilling holes and making something to bungee rope too.

Well they were bungeed together but not bolted to the floor. I'm probably going to switch them again so they ... two other dogs in the car. And bungees really aren't the best anyway you need cargo straps. Bungees stretch too much.

Indeed I agree cargo staps are a better way to go. But several bungees will work fairly
well. Not the best as you have pointed out. Better then nothing at all. Especially if there are several bungee ropes stapped in several locations. One would never do the
trick for dogs that are larger. Bolted to the floor would probably be a pretty easy
thing to do. But then I am certainly not good at doing things like this myself. I can come
up with the ideas and the right way to place them. But using the ole power tools just
isn't my favorite thing. Though I don't mind drills and power screwdrivers at all. It's
when you get into the chainsaws that I really become a whimp.

Gwen
Don't dogs become destructive for a reason? The solution then might be something else, something as simple as reducing whatever is stressing the dog.

Absolutely! And for many (not all) dogs, being crated does reduce the stress.
The reason for a destructive dog isn't always stress, however. Puppies naturally explore with their mouths. Adolescents are notorious chewers. Crating them with the proper chew toys will (1) create the good habit of choosing that toy for chewing, (2) stop the pup from creating bad habits, such as chewing on the blinds, and (3) keep the pup safe.
the den bit is probably sound, nice place to sleep and so on, but then dogs can sleep happy on the carpet too if the house is the den. I guess you could get a really huge crate!

You know how you wisely suggested looking for the cause instead of just treating the symptoms? :} Some dogs are overwhelmed by their "jobs" of guarding the whole house when their owners are gone, and become anxious and destructive. When they're crated, their perceived responsibility is much easier to handle, since their den has been reduced to a small, safe area.

I think the problem is that the anti-craters here are assuming that the pro-craters want the dog in the crate whenever there are no humans to supervise. This is partly true. But the goal isn't to keep him in the crate for his whole life, it's to produce a dog who is trustworthy with the run of the house. Crate training is successful when the dog no longer needs to be crated, but doesn't mind (or enjoys) when he is.
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three hours is plenty of time for a dog to get into serious trouble.

Heh. Time for the Madigan Story.
Since I had the Perfect Puppy, I never used a crate. She was housebroken in 4 days (I was home with her for that time, supervising 24/7), and never chewed anything that wasn't hers. At age 5 months, she had the run of the house while I was at work. I would come home every 4 hours to let her outside and play with her. No housebreaking errors, no damage. Amazing puppy.

Then she hit adolescence.
One day, I went to work as usual. I came home 4 hours later, as usual. And found literally thousands of dollars worth of damage. Two lineoleum floors, several rooms of rugs, blinds, wallpaper, baseboards - everything remodeled.

Not so dog savvy at the time, I assumed that it was a one-time deal. After all, she had never done anything like that before! And she didn't do it again... for about two weeks.
That's when I began to crate her.
There was a benefit to the crating that I hadn't expected. When she had the run of the house, I would get home to a looney-tunes doggie. When I let her out of the crate, she was much calmer, less wound up.

Madigan has always been my best teacher. :}
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