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That being the case, maybe it's time to seriously question whether a family who have to be away from the ... and knowing when to forego dog ownership would probably resolve a great many 'dog problems' straight off don't you think?

Quoted in entirety, because I agree with every bit of it. :}

Sadly, if people were actually this serious about their responsibilities, there would be no dogs in shelters right now. But they're not, and there are.

If somebody in this kind of situation wants a dog, I think an older dog could be a great choice. There are plenty of calm, housetrained older dogs whose only other choices are euthanasia or shelter life. Heck, my Murphy could thrive in this kind of environment. As long as she had a human to cuddle up with at night, she'd be perfectly content to sleep away the day.

But it wouldn't be a beneficial situation for an active dog or a puppy. And yes, could definitely cause behavior problems.
Canine Action Dog Trainer
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The crate did not help with her SA, and she was much worse in it than out (in comparison of course, because she didn't hurt herself while left uncrated). Just FYI, because you know that I'm far from being anti-crate training.

I absolutely agree that SA can be a contraindication for crating. The crate helps some SA dogs, but can dramatically increase the symptoms in others. A dog who has injured herself trying to escape a crate should not be crated and left alone.
Canine Action Dog Trainer
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what would you do if you were pulled over by the police for some reason?

This alone should be the thing that makes me start crating Orson in the car. The one time I was pulled over with him in the car, he violently barked nonstop. I think I was let go with a warning only because the trooper was scared of the noises coming from inside the car.

it's also important for your safety.
if you're in a wreck, your dog will become a projectile.

A crate can become a projectile too.
it
could not only harm or kill you, but could be ejected from the car and killed.

Reason two I probably should be crating. Although I have qualms about putting a wire crate in the car, getting into a wreck, and skewering my dog because of how easily they collapse. Does anyone use wire crates in cars, or are all the people on this thread using plastic crates for travel?
proper training would give your dog the skills to handle being crated or restrained in a harness and seat belt. like i said, ensuring my pets' safety is my number one job. if i can't do that, i've got no business having pets.

I dislike the implication that someone who doesn't use a crate in the car isn't fit to have pets. That's not what you're saying, is it?

Cate
what would you do if you were pulled over by the police for some reason?

This alone should be the thing that makes me start crating Orson in the car. The one time I was ... was let go with a warning only because the trooper was scared of the noises coming from inside the car.

Yep and Blade has done the same. And people have issues with GSDs that have a look that appears to be bad. So he is crated, but that is just one of the many reasons.
it's also important for your safety.

if you're in a wreck, your dog will become a projectile.

A crate can become a projectile too.

Not in my car. That would be pretty much something if that crate got over the upright seats of my SUV, Explorer.
it

could not only harm or kill you, but could be ejected from the car and killed.

Reason two I probably should be crating. Although I have qualms about putting a wire crate in the car, getting ... Does anyone use wire crates in cars, or are all the people on this thread using plastic crates for travel?

I have a wire crate. I don't think plastic is going to be any more protection.
In fact possibly less. Either way if I get rear ended hard it could be bad. I have a wire crate with a side door so that the crate fits perfectly in the back of the SUV.
proper training would give your dog the skills to handle ... i can't do that, i've got no business having pets.

I dislike the implication that someone who doesn't use a crate in the car isn't fit to have pets. That's not what you're saying, is it? Cate

I think Shelly was implying crates, and or seatbelts. I do think dogs need one or the other, but I am not going to go as far as saying that a person that doesn't have one or the other isn't fit to be a pet owner. Heck how many people drive
around in cars without seatbelts still? I know I don't even turn on the key without my seatbelt on. OTOH I do have a few friends that won't wear or don't wear them everytime.
Gwen
This alone should be the thing that makes me start crating Orson in the car.

i was horrified when the dog i was referring to was shot. i don't know that the police could or should have done anything different, but if that had happened to one of my dogs i would've been devastated. it was just one of those things i'd never, ever considered.
A crate can become a projectile too.

not if it's properly secured. i can't properly secure one in my car, so i opt for a sturdy (!) harness and seat belt. it's not perfect, but i'm confident that this will keep my dogs every bit as secure as my own seat belt will keep me.
Reason two I probably should be crating. Although I have qualms about putting a wire crate in the car, getting into a wreck, and skewering my dog because of how easily they collapse.

i've wondered about that, too.
I dislike the implication that someone who doesn't use a crate in the car isn't fit to have pets. That's not what you're saying, is it?

i don't buy Spot's "my dog gets stressed, so i leave it loose in the car" argument. i think that's an abdication of responsibility. if the owner can't figure out how to acclimate the dog to a crate, then they should at least use a harness and seat belt. as for the last sentence, that's how i* feel personally about *my animals.

shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
.
Too bad, because it's a safe way for them to ride in the car. I guess you don't participate in any organized dog activities?

No, they are way too old. Crates for them wouldn't fit into my current vehicle because of carseats and size. I do have seatbelts for them though. My next dog will be crate trained and I plan to do some obedience and some kind of doogie sport so a collaspable crate will probably be needed.

B
Not in my car. That would be pretty much something if that crate got over the upright seats of my SUV, Explorer.

is the crate secured to the body of the car? if not, i'd be concerned that it could flatten the seats if the impact were hard enough.
I think Shelly was implying crates, and or seatbelts.

"...crated or restrained in a harness and seat belt."
I do think dogs need one or the other, but I am not going to go as far as saying that a person that doesn't have one or the other isn't fit to be a pet owner.

neither did i.

shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
A crate can become a projectile too.

Not in my car. That would be pretty much something if that crate got over the upright seats of my SUV, Explorer.

I realize I'm not arguing from a very defensible position, but 'pretty much something' is exactly what happens in serious accidents. Cars don't stay intact. Seats don't stay upright. People and objects in the back go out the windshield. Yes, I hear you say 'all the more reason to use a crate' and you're right. However, don't think for a minute a crate could never come over the seats, which might be mangled or missing, and right over your head.
I think Shelly was implying crates, and or seatbelts. I do think dogs need one or the other, but I ... key without my seatbelt on. OTOH I do have a few friends that won't wear or don't wear them everytime.

One day maybe I'll learn a painful lesson about crating Orson the way I learned a painful lesson about seatbelts. Two high school friends were in a serious accident; neither wore their belts. (They both lived, although one just barely so.) One sailed through the windshield, 80 feet away from the wreckage that used to be a car. Things in the trunk came through the windshield with her, or out the space where the roof used to be.

Cate
A crate can become a projectile too.

not if it's properly secured.

I have doubts (see my post to Gwen; have you ever seen a horrifying mangled car up close?), but I realize I'm quickly taking this into the good vs. perfect territory.
i can't properly secure one in
my car, so i opt for a sturdy (!) harness and seat belt. it's not perfect, but i'm confident that this will keep my dogs every bit as secure as my own seat belt will keep me.

I think I might feel better about a harness or seat belt than I would a crate. I've never even looked at them. Do you know if they generally are available only to hook into seat belts? Because I ride with my back seats down all the time. Hmm. May not be able to do a belt after all.
i don't buy Spot's "my dog gets stressed, so i leave it loose in the car" argument.

Nor do I. I leave my dog loose in the car because I'm lazy and cheap, and because he gets a lot of enjoyment of sticking his head out the window, which I let him do whenever I'm driving below about 45. When he's not doing that, he's lying down with his head facing forward on the armrest between the front seats. He'll sleep like that on long trips, even when he's got his whole bed to lie on. I think it's because he wants to be close to us.
Cate
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