Did a little googling around and read some of my early opinions on e-collars. Many of my feelings about them are still the same - not for every person and dog; needs to be taught, not just turned up to high and pushed; prefer to not use one as much as possible - not beacuse of cruelty or pain, but because I don't want to carry "stuff" (which, as I stated them, includes clickers, food, etc).

OTOH, I'm glad I've read, watched, learned. Some of my impressions and assumptions were not on target. My use of one has been a really good thing, for both myself and my dog. It has allowed for more freedom and enjoyment of something he truly loves, but needed to learn to play by the rules, and accomplished such in the most humane and stressless way.
I still don't buy into the Fred Hassen "no limitations" gig. I know dog owners are inherently lazy and look for the easy push-button answer. Can a lot be accomplished, fairly easily and with low stress to the dog, by use of an e-collar? You bet. Do I think they should be used for every dog, for "average" response? Not even close. Most dog owners aren't striving for as much reliability as one may gain using the collar. The collar isn't a practical tool for many other applications - either being superfluous or just plain unnecessary.

I'm glad I reminded myself of some of my close-minded ideas, and glad that I'm a confident enough person to allow myself to open my mind and learn. Sure wish others could undertand what that really means.
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
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I still don't buy into the Fred Hassen "no limitations" gig.

For example?

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to send me e-mail
The Cartoon War: A Collison of Values
"The conflict once again reveals the peculiar arrogance of some European Muslim immigrants: they cannot be criticized or satirized, though they freely critique and satirize Christians, Jews, and secularists." http://www.austinbay.net/blog/index.php?p=885
"Italian wiretaps led to arrests of Muslim terrorists who were plotting another 9/11 at the very time Democratic Senators in confirmation hearings tore into Justice Alito for supposedly condoning police-state tactics." http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-2 6 06 VDH.html
I still don't buy into the Fred Hassen "no limitations" gig.

For example?

Besides the fact that he reminds me of a used car salesman, I just don't think that the best way to train, for every dog, is with the e-collar. I think it's a very versatile tool, but don't think every new puppy should come with one.
There have also been some (well witnessed) recollections of some of his seminars, with some poor use of the collar, and his reaction makes me queasy. I like fairness.

Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
For example?

Besides the fact that he reminds me of a used car salesman,

Why???
I just don't think that the best way to train, for every dog, is with the e-collar.

I agree with that, and so does Fred.
I think it's a very versatile tool, but don't think every new puppy should come with one.

Oh, I agree with that, too, and so does Fred.
There have also been some (well witnessed) recollections of some of his seminars, with some poor use of the collar,

For example?
And were they even in a position to judge? If they were at a seminar, I have to assume that they are mostly inexperienced with the proper use of an e-collar?
and his reaction makes me queasy.

What reaction?
I like fairness.

Why wasn't their fairness?
Could you provide me with more specific information, kiddo?

You're starting to sound like Alison. Emotion: smile

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to send me e-mail
The Cartoon War: A Collison of Values
"The conflict once again reveals the peculiar arrogance of some European Muslim immigrants: they cannot be criticized or satirized, though they freely critique and satirize Christians, Jews, and secularists." http://www.austinbay.net/blog/index.php?p=885
"Italian wiretaps led to arrests of Muslim terrorists who were plotting another 9/11 at the very time Democratic Senators in confirmation hearings tore into Justice Alito for supposedly condoning police-state tactics." http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-2 6 06 VDH.html
Besides the fact that he reminds me of a used car salesman,

Why???

He points to his website a lot and doesn't actually enter into training discussion. He's all about self-promotion. More power to him in many ways, but still.
There have also been some (well witnessed) recollections of some of his seminars, with some poor use of the collar,

For example?

Stimming the wrong dog. When the dog being worked wasn't responding, turning up the stim a great deal and winding up giving high stims to a crated dog.
And were they even in a position to judge? If they were at a seminar, I have to assume that they are mostly inexperienced with the proper use of an e-collar?

More than one person, some more versed than others.
and his reaction makes me queasy.

What reaction?

That it was no big deal. I think it is. I think anyone using anything of power should be very sure of where that power is pointed.
Why wasn't their fairness? Could you provide me with more specific information, kiddo? You're starting to sound like Alison. Emotion: smile

Oh please - no! The crated dog didn't deserve the collar action he got and there didn't seem to be the least bit of regret about it. One again, it's kind of like the old comic of Dennis the Menace hitting a baseball and braking Mr Wilson's window. Know where you're aiming.

Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Why???

He points to his website a lot and doesn't actually enter into training discussion. He's all about self-promotion. More power to him in many ways, but still.

What's wrong with pointing to his web site, Janet? Don't you do that yourself?
He once participated quite extensively *here,* but got worn down by all the morons, like Alison, Lucy, Diana, etc. His pain tolerance, and patience with bimbos, isn't the equivalent of, say, mine. Or yours, for that matter.
Communicating with the written word isn't something that Fred is very good at, and he knows it. But he still participates on several mail lists, with other professional trainers.
For example?

Stimming the wrong dog. When the dog being worked wasn't responding, turning up the stim a great deal and winding up giving high stims to a crated dog.

I think that's a crock of crap, Janet. Was this Fred himself doing the seminar? He's always been pretty damn careful about things like that. I can't even imagine Fred turning up the stim, much less stimming the wrong dog.
And were they even in a position to judge? If ... are mostly inexperienced with the proper use of an e-collar?

More than one person, some more versed than others.

They don't sound like they were really qualified to judge anyone, IMO, and especially to know what was really going on.

Fred's one of the best e-collar trainers out there, (no one is as good as I am, of course), and I have nothing but great respect for his abilities.
What reaction?

That it was no big deal.

What was no big deal? His reaction to stimming the wrong dog? Maybe his lack of a reaction was because there really wasn't anything to react to?
I think it is. I think anyone using anything of power should be very sure of where that power is pointed.

Why wasn't their fairness?

I'm still not sure what you mean by fairness, Janet.

Let's say that it did happen, okay? Did the fact that a mistake was made indicate a lack of fairness to you?
Could you provide me with more specific information, kiddo? You're starting to sound like Alison. Emotion: smile

Oh please - no! The crated dog didn't deserve the collar action he got and there didn't seem to be the least bit of regret about it.

Well, it's probably not the first time that the wrong dog has gotten stimmed, but Fred uses such low levels of stimulation (especially at seminars), it probably really is no big deal.
One again, it's kind of like the old comic of Dennis the Menace hitting a baseball and braking Mr Wilson's window. Know where you're aiming.

Oh, come on Janet. You've never seen a dog accidentally get jerked around by his leash, say, when the handler wasn't paying attention? You've never done it yourself? Did you think it was a big deal?

Did you automatically think that you weren't being fair?

My advice: Stop talking to Alison!
You're starting to sound like her. Emotion: smile

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to send me e-mail
The Cartoon War: A Collison of Values
"The conflict once again reveals the peculiar arrogance of some European Muslim immigrants: they cannot be criticized or satirized, though they freely critique and satirize Christians, Jews, and secularists." http://www.austinbay.net/blog/index.php?p=885
"Italian wiretaps led to arrests of Muslim terrorists who were plotting another 9/11 at the very time Democratic Senators in confirmation hearings tore into Justice Alito for supposedly condoning police-state tactics." http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-2 6 06 VDH.html
Communicating with the written word isn't something that Fred is very good at, and he knows it. But he still participates on several mail lists, with other professional trainers.

I'm on one. Several people, besides myself, have mentioned that he very, very rarely takes part in any discussions, but does a lot of "come look at my videos". While my website is in my sig line, I don't promote it (not to mention there isn't much there except basic information for students! ;-D).
I think that's a crock of crap, Janet. Was this Fred himself doing the seminar? He's always been pretty damn careful about things like that. I can't even imagine Fred turning up the stim, much less stimming the wrong dog.

Ask him. I can find the information if I look back enough, but not sure it would be appropriate to reprint something from a list, here.
They don't sound like they were really qualified to judge anyone, IMO, and especially to know what was really going on.

They saw a dog being stimmed that wasn't the dog being worked. How hard is that to "really" see?
Fred's one of the best e-collar trainers out there, (no one is as good as I am, of course), and I have nothing but great respect for his abilities.

I agree that he's one of the best e-collar trainers out there. But he's human and can make mistakes.
What was no big deal? His reaction to stimming the wrong dog? Maybe his lack of a reaction was because there really wasn't anything to react to?

I will try to find the more precise information, but yes, there was something to react to.
Let's say that it did happen, okay? Did the fact that a mistake was made indicate a lack of fairness to you?

The lack of remorse. I think good e-collar work is very fair. But in this case, it was not fair to the crated dog.
Well, it's probably not the first time that the wrong dog has gotten stimmed, but Fred uses such low levels of stimulation (especially at seminars), it probably really is no big deal.

You weren't there and neither was I. The dog in the crate apparently thought it was a VERY big deal.
Oh, come on Janet. You've never seen a dog accidentally get jerked around by his leash, say, when the handler wasn't paying attention? You've never done it yourself? Did you think it was a big deal?

I think it's a lot different than escalating stim levels (and as far as the handler not paying attention and the dog getting jerked? I'd say it's more often the HUMAN who get's pained!).
Seriously - let me look for the info on the Fred episode.
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Communicating with the written word isn't something that Fred is ... still participates on several mail lists, with other professional trainers.

I'm on one. Several people, besides myself, have mentioned that he very, very rarely takes part in any discussions, but does a lot of "come look at my videos".

Look, like I said before, Fred doesn't communicate very well in writing. If a picture really is worth a thousand words, like they say it us (don't ask me you "they" are), then Fred "communicates" pretty good without having to say very much.
While my website is in my sig line, I don't promote it (not to mention there isn't much there except basic information for students! ;-D).

But what would be wrong with promoting? This is America, not Cuba. And if you don't think that having it sitting there, at the end of every single post you make on Usenet, isn't "promoting" it, why not just remove it?
Is this a little jealousy that I'm detecting here? Of course, there's no known record of trainers being jealous of other trainers. Maybe this is the very first time it's ever happened? Emotion: smile
I think that's a crock of crap, Janet. Was this ... turning up the stim, much less stimming the wrong dog.

Ask him. I can find the information if I look back enough, but not sure it would be appropriate to reprint something from a list, here.

Why ask Fred??? Why shouldn't I ask your friends, instead? Aren't they the ones who matter here? Did Fred admit (on the mail list) that he stimmed the wrong dog? Is it his response on the mail list that has you so concerned? Or his response at the seminar?
They don't sound like they were really qualified to judge anyone, IMO, and especially to know what was really going on.

They saw a dog being stimmed that wasn't the dog being worked. How hard is that to "really" see?

But how would they know for sure that the dog had actually being stimmed??
A dog being stimmed isn't that unlike a dog not being stimmed. Maybe a twitch of ears, etc. How exactly did they KNOW?
Fred's one of the best e-collar trainers out there, (no ... and I have nothing but great respect for his abilities.

I agree that he's one of the best e-collar trainers out there. But he's human and can make mistakes.

Is that a good enough reason to dump on him? Don't you ever make mistakes? I know that I do.
Maybe the next time you dump on a trainer for making a mistake (if he indeed did make one), you'll include every trainer who's ever made a mistake, including yourself?
What was no big deal? His reaction to stimming the ... reaction was because there really wasn't anything to react to?

I will try to find the more precise information, but yes, there was something to react to.

I hope you will do just that, Janet. If this was a discussion on another mail list, why not just redact the personal information and post the rest here?
Let's say that it did happen, okay? Did the fact that a mistake was made indicate a lack of fairness to you?

The lack of remorse. I think good e-collar work is very fair. But in this case, it was not fair to the crated dog.

Oh please, Janet. What was Fred supposed to do, get down on his knees and beg for forgiveness? Making a big fuss over an innocent mistake isn't something you'll find me doing very often, either.

Did you do that everytime you trip over the leash and yank the dog around by mistake?
Please.
Yes, you're sounding just like Alison now, Janet. You've lost your perspective, IMO.
Well, it's probably not the first time that the wrong ... (especially at seminars), it probably really is no big deal.

You weren't there and neither was I. The dog in the crate apparently thought it was a VERY big deal.

I make it a point never to pass on information about people regarding things that might have happened or didn't happen, if I didn't see them happen or not happen myself. Even about people I don't like.

And you have no way of knowing if the dog thought it was a big deal, because you didn't see it yourself, because you didn't see the dog yourself, and bvecause you have no way of knowing if your "friends" might not have an agenda, etc.
Oh, come on Janet. You've never seen a dog accidentally ... it yourself? Did you think it was a big deal?

I think it's a lot different than escalating stim levels (and as far as the handler not paying attention and the dog getting jerked? I'd say it's more often the HUMAN who get's pained!).

Well, I would definitely disagree with you there, too, because some dogs can't take a lot of pressure on their necks, tracheas, etc.
Seriously - let me look for the info on the Fred episode.

IMO, that would be a very good idea.

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to send me e-mail
Jimmy "Jimmuh" Carter, Joseph Lowery, et al.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21223
Look, like I said before, Fred doesn't communicate very well in writing. If a picture really is worth a thousand words, like they say it us (don't ask me you "they" are), then Fred "communicates" pretty good without having to say very much.

I'm just calling it as I see it. He rarely answers a question and no, his videos do not answer it. No biggie - just what it is.
But what would be wrong with promoting? This is America, not Cuba. And if you don't think that having it sitting there, at the end of every single post you make on Usenet, isn't "promoting" it, why not just remove it?

It's not active promotion, but put there so people can see who I am. Not asking anyone to look at it, or not.
Is this a little jealousy that I'm detecting here? Of course, there's no known record of trainers being jealous of other trainers. Maybe this is the very first time it's ever happened? Emotion: smile

Nope. I have no desire to be a well-traveled dog trainer! I'm pretty happy with what I do and where I do it. I think it's great that he's successful. It would just be nice for him to actually converse with other dog trainers nce in awhile. His "written word" skills can't be that poor.
Why ask Fred??? Why shouldn't I ask your friends, instead?

Not my friends - I don't know them except from a trainer's list. I don't remember who it was at this point and my search has been tedious so far.
Did Fred admit (on the mail list) that he stimmed the wrong dog? Is it his response on the mail list that has you so concerned? Or his response at the seminar?

Yes, he admitted it, and both.
But how would they know for sure that the dog had actually being stimmed??

He apparently reacted rather dramatically.
A dog being stimmed isn't that unlike a dog not being stimmed. Maybe a twitch of ears, etc. How exactly did they KNOW?

He was screaming.
Is that a good enough reason to dump on him? Don't you ever make mistakes? I know that I do.

You bet I do. Not dumping on him, just not jumping on his bandwagon. I said I don't buy into the FH gig. You asked me to elaborate. I didn't set out to "dump" on him.
I hope you will do just that, Janet. If this was a discussion on another mail list, why not just redact the personal information and post the rest here?

When and if I can find it.
Oh please, Janet. What was Fred supposed to do, get down on his knees and beg for forgiveness? Making a big fuss over an innocent mistake isn't something you'll find me doing very often, either.

Admit his mistake and say - wow folks - be really careful that you've got the right button for the dog being worked.
I make it a point never to pass on information about people regarding things that might have happened or didn't happen, if I didn't see them happen or not happen myself. Even about people I don't like.

It's not ab out liking or not liking Fred. Honestly, I don't think about him much at all! More than one person on a TRAINER'S list discussed this seminar.
you have no way of knowing if your "friends" might not have an agenda, etc.

Trainers. Not friends, not people I have ever met.
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
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