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Thank you Karen, I was really starting to feel guilty about what I was feeding them. Come tax time I'll load up on the quality stuff lol..

Christina
you'll me[/nq]^)~~~ Sue (remove the x to e-mail)
Jon, is this the dry or canned version? What does the AAFCO statement say?
Wellness Turkey and Salmon has a phosphorus level of 0.88% and the Chicken and Salmon has a phosphorus level of 0.91%. Both are well below the oft-quoted 0.98% maximum recommended phosphorus level.

Jon,
Where are you getting the numbers above?
What's wrong w/ carbs?

Plenty, when your forcing them on an animal that is a strict carnivore with no need or ability to process them properly.

One ought to keep in mind the difference between opinion*, *hypothesis and hard data. To date the carbohphobics have a hypothesis. It may or may not be correct. What they do NOT have is any hard peer reviewed published studies to support the hypothesis. Drs. Zoran, Greco and one or two others have done an excellent job of hypothesising possible issues around feeding carbohydrates to cats. None of the issue hypotehsized have been proven in any manner whatsoever by any peer reviewed published studies.

One also ought to keep in mind that there is another side issue involved. If you remove the carbohydrates from foods you have to replace the energy they provide with something, either fats or proteins. If you increase fats in an already obese society of cats there may be a downside to that process. With increased protein levels you almost always increase calcium and phosphorus. Renal failure is the number two killer of kitties in this country. Increasing phosphorus in the cat population as whole will unquestionably have massive negative side effects. Before jumping over the cliff it would be wise to know just how far the bottom is from the top of the cliff. At present the carbophobics are busy jumping off a cliff without any knowledge of how far they are going to fall.
One ought to keep in mind the difference between opinion*, *hypothesis and hard data. To date the carbohphobics have a ... Greco and one or two others have done an excellent job of hypothesising possible issues around feeding carbohydrates to cats.

Yes, common sense and logic are a wonderful thing.
None of the issue hypotehsized have been proven in any manner whatsoever by any peer reviewed published studies.

I get really sick of your dishonesty in posting. The truth is that "peer reviewed" is NOT the end all be all and you also forgot to add that the issues haven't been disproven either.
One also ought to keep in mind that there is another side issue involved. If you remove the carbohydrates from ... cats there may be a downside to that process. With increased protein levels you almost always increase calcium and phosphorus.[/nq]A mouse is 40% protein, 50% fat and 3% carbohydrates, and is considered the right food for a cat. So why don't the "recommended levels" reflect that? The Ca:P ratio is 1.4:1 with an adult mouse containing 3.6 mg/kcal which is much higher than the 2mg/kcal that is generally recommended. This leads me to believe that the phosphorus level in foods does not have to be as low as is claimed provided that protein, fat and carbs are at about the same balance as a mouse.

Before the advent of carbohydrate filled "dry" cat foods, you didn't see the incidence of kidney failure and diabetes you do now. Logic would dictate that there is* an issue here that needs to be investigated and I think that kidney problems are not the result of feeding cats foods with a phosphorus level over .09%, but rather feeding them dry carbohydrate filled foods that force them to drink water (which they often don't) to make up for all the moisture they *should be getting in their food.

This results in putting stress on the kidneys long term from being in a constant state of dehydration. The fact that low phosphorus is recommended for a cat already in renal failure is because the kidneys, once damaged, cannot deal as well with higher levels, BUT that does not by any means prove that a long term diet low in phosphorus will prevent renal failure, or that a diet with higher levels will cause renal failure.
WRT diabetes, the specialist on the AVMA article explained the relationship of carbs quite well and I don't need to repeat that except to repeat that every single client I have had over the years with a diabetic cat (and that is many), and one of my own many years ago, all were fed a dry food only diet all of their life before diagnosis. You can deny a correlation as much as you want, but so far I haven't seen a single case of a cat fed a proper canned diet developing diabetes, and, although anecdotal, there is a clear pattern here that should not be ignored.
Considering you work for Hills and it is your job to promote their products, including their many carb -filled canned foods (average 16-28% of kcals coming from carbs as opposed to 3-5 % for a food such as Wellness!), it is expected that you are going to do everything you can to paint a rosy picture of carb-filled foods. Your bias is clear.
Renal failure is the number two killer of kitties in this country. Increasing phosphorus in the cat population as whole will unquestionably have massive negative side effects.

And where is your peer reviewed, published study to support this statement?
Megan
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What's wrong w/ carbs? Are you a carbophobic??

Perhaps nothing.
On the other hand, a high-carb diet is certainly not what the cat has evolved to process. As such, it behoves the carbophiles to prove that a high-carb diet is entirely without problems. This has not happened, not yet.
Companies also have something of a vested interest in dry diets - convenience for the consumer, a nice sales point - and so presumably little interest in highlighting any problems inherent in carb-rich diets.
Steve.
circa Tue, 20 Jan 2004 05:12:17 -0500, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Christina (Email Removed) said,
Thank you Karen, I was really starting to feel guilty about what I was feeding them. Come tax time I'll load up on the quality stuff lol..

When I was in college and dirt poor, I fed my cats Purina Cat Chow. It's not something I'd feed them now, but you do what you have to do. As others have said, a well-loved cat being fed less-than-perfect cat food is better off than a starving cat living on the street. Don't guilt yourself; when you can afford higher-quality food, I'm sure you'll feed your cats higher-quality food. :-)
Laura

I am Dyslexia of Borg,
Your ass will be laminated.
Wellness Turkey and Salmon has a phosphorus level of 0.88% ... are well below the oft-quoted 0.98% maximum recommended phosphorus level.

Jon, Where are you getting the numbers above?

It's the canned variety, and they came from
http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm
I had emailed the company several months back and recieved the same numbers from them. Wellness is one of the few foods I can't really find any fault with.. and unlike Science Diet my cats eat it.
Jon
Jon, is this the dry or canned version? What does the AAFCO statementsay?

Canned.
"Animal feeding tests using AAFCO procedures substantiate that Wellness Cat Food provides complete and balanced nutrition for All Life Stages."
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