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There's an example of name calling right there! None of you EVER callLauren on it however. You're a bunch of ... on.You don't like that fact, so you try to label the bearer of your bad news a "troll". Grow up.

You did this just now by directly stating that Wellness canned had high phosphorus levels. You had no idea whatsoever what the actual numbers for Wellness were. I gave them to you, and now you're asking for the AAFCO statement.
What else do you have up your sleeve? You automatically assume every cat food sucks for reasons you literally make up.
Jon
When I was in college and dirt poor, I fed my cats Purina Cat Chow. It's not something I'd feed ... the street. Don't guilt yourself; when you can afford higher-quality food, I'm sure you'll feed your cats higher-quality food. :-)

I agree. If all you can afford right now is a lower quality cat food, don't feel guilty about it. When I was in college I was feeding my cat Purina Cat Chow too, and maybe a little Meow Mix as well. I think that since she was a young, healthy cat, it didn't really do her any lasting harm to eat a less than optimum diet for a year or two. As I learned more about feline nutrition I switched to better diets. She lived to age 17.
I do want to add, however, that switching to a high quality diet can make quite a visible difference in your cats' health. You may also find that they are actually consuming less food because higher quality foods are more nutritious, so the cost difference in the long run may not be as much as you expect.
Chicken

Jon, Where are you getting the numbers above?

It's the canned variety, and they came from http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm I had emailed the company several months back and recieved the ... of the few foods I can't really find any fault with.. and unlike Science Diet my cats eat it. Jon

Hmmm,
Are the numbers above for the canned food? That's the only version I can find that is Turkey & salmon. Assuming that's the right food. I have not looked at wellness cat foods to any degree, but I have looked at the dog foods frequently and they are pretty consistant with elevated levels of clacium in most of thier foods. Rumor has it the company was sold last week so who knows what will happen from here.

On Wellness webpage they list the following:
10% protein
6% fat
1% fiber
78% moisture

1.8% ash
96.8% Total

This would indicate 3.2% carbohydrates
Converting all this to DMB gives the following:

45.45% protein
27.27% fat
4.54% fiber(No moisture in a DMB)

8.18% ash
14.54% carbohydrates

Pretty typical and not particularly dissimilar to a Science Diet product of similar type.
DMB values

48.5% protein
27.5% fat
0.6% fiber(No moisture in a a DMB)

7.4% ash
16.0% carbohydrates
What's wrong w/ carbs? Are you a carbophobic??

Perhaps nothing. On the other hand, a high-carb diet is certainly not what the cat has evolved to process. As ... consumer, a nice sales point - and so presumably little interest in highlighting any problems inherent in carb-rich diets. Steve.

I have to disagree on a couple points. First of all since cats moved to primarily dry diets begining in the 1950's the overall health of cats has greatly improved and cats are living much longer than they ever did before in history. Certainly diet is not the entire reason for it, veterinary care, vaccinations, better care by the owner, being kept indoors, etc all play a role. But if dry diets were such an anathema as has been described by the carbophobics there is fifty years of proof right there in front of them. Nonetheless, despite how hard they try to prove it, the numbers never work. Cats are living longer healthier lives than ever before.
Secondly pet food manufacturers would much prefer to sell canned foods. It is a great deal more profitable than canned foods, by huge percentage points. The profit that can be made feeding one cat for a year on canned food versus on dry food is significantly higher. Not only for the manufacturer, but the retailer as well. On average it would add up to well over hundred dollars a year to the bottom line for each cat that was placed on a canned food. There are lots of forces in play, converting every cat to a canned food would be hugely profitable and beneficial to any company and every retailer.
Hmmm, Are the numbers above for the canned food? That's the only version I can find that is Turkey & ... here. On Wellness webpage they list the following: 10% protein 6% fat 1% fiber 78% moisture 1.8% ash 96.8% Total

Good job lying, Steve. That's the Guaranteed Analysis which all of us know is useless. IMMEDIATELY BELOW those numbers are the AS FED numbers. You couldn't use those numbers, could you? They interestingly leave out the as fed moisture, but assuming it's even 76.4%, there are no carbs whatsoever.

I'm quite satisfied that Wellness has far fewer carbs than Science Diet, has no by-products, and has phosphorus and calcium levels within the recommendations.
What else do you have up your sleeve?
Hmmm, Are the numbers above for the canned food? That's ... 6% fat 1% fiber 78% moisture 1.8% ash 96.8% Total

Good job lying, Steve. That's the Guaranteed Analysis which all of us know is useless. IMMEDIATELY BELOW those numbers are ... has no by-products, and has phosphorus and calcium levels within the recommendations. What else do you have up your sleeve?

Jon,
Obviously you are missing some information. The numbers immediately below the guaranteed values are NOT DMB numbers. There is no lying of any kind int he data that I presented. There are three accepted methods or values used in thte industry.
Guaranteed analysis - required by law on the packaging this value is always expressed in minimums or maximums and is of very little use in comparing one food to another. example Protein 10% min

As Fed Analysis - a number giving actual tested percentages and values of any given nutrient. Thus a protein will be expressed as an exact number example 13.4%.
Dry Matter Basis - a number wherein the moisture level has been removed and the net values of any given nutrient can be compared to any other food. If Wellness gave youo a moisture number in the second box below you could calculate the actual percentage of protein. Since they do not give you that value it cannot be calculated.

As for the carbohydrates in that particular food. Each of the following ingredients contains carbs. Sweet Potatoes, Carrots, Vegetable Gums, Alfalfa, Cranberries, Blueberries, Yellow Squash, Yellow Zucchini, Garlic.
I placed a call placed to Wellness this morning and asked them for the values of the carbs in this food. As fed basis 6.7% dry matter basis
27.0%.

I will graciously accept your apology anytime. You may call them yourself at 1-800-225-0904
I have to disagree on a couple points. First of all since cats moved to primarily dry diets begining in ... entire reason for it, veterinary care, vaccinations, better care by the owner, being kept indoors, etc all play a role.

And the extent to which each has played a role is basically unknown. Further, I doubt you are arguing that a high-carb diet has directly led to increased longevity?
Additionally, I think that cats have moved 'primarily' to dry diets in the USA, but not necessarily in other places (e.g., UK). I think it would be interesting to compare and contrast the causes of death, longevity itself, and other ailments in cats fed dry food and cats fed wet food. Ideally one would compare wet and dry foods with the same nutritional composition, of course.
But if dry diets were such an anathema as has been described by the carbophobics there is fifty years of ... much prefer to sell canned foods. It is a great deal more profitable than canned foods, by huge percentage points.

That's surprising. Why is that so? I tended to assume that the manufacturer would choose a certain profit margin and keep to that for most items.
Having said that, 'premium' cat foods are expensive; indeed, I've often wondered if there are some decent recipes for cooking up cat food at home. I'm certain it would be easy - in principle - to put together a better quality food than that available in commercial cans.
The profit that can be made feeding one cat for a year on canned food versus on dry food is ... play, converting every cat to a canned food would be hugely profitable and beneficial to any company and every retailer.

Ah, so the marketing of dry foods by the manufacturers is an act of altruism. Hooray for industry!
Steve.
None of the issue hypotehsized have been proven in any manner whatsoever by any peer reviewed published studies.

I get really sick of your dishonesty in posting. The truth is that "peer reviewed" is NOT the end all be all and you also forgot to add that the issues haven't been disproven either.

Peer reviewed is the very best process we have. It is always noticeable that those who like to slam the process, have no better process to offer and are usually swimming around in opposition to known proven facts.
One also ought to keep in mind that there is ... increased protein levels you almost always increase calcium and phosphorus.

A mouse is 40% protein, 50% fat and 3% carbohydrates, and is considered the right food for a cat. So ... as low as is claimed provided that protein, fat and carbs are at about the same balance as a mouse.

Sigh,
As always you are welcome to your opinion, despite the reality that you have zero data to support that opinion and find yourself in utter oposition to every Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition. You have chosen to "ignore" excessive minerals because it won't fit with an expressed and unproven hypothesis. Again that is your right and I have no problem with that at all.
Considering you work for Hills and it is your job to promote their products, including their many carb -filled canned foods (average 16-28% of kcals coming from carbs as opposed to 3-5 % for a food such as Wellness!),

That is completely incorrect, as proven in an earlier message. The Wellness product under discussion (canned salmon and turkey) contained no less carbs than typical Science Dite canned foods. In fact it contained MORE carbs that the equivalent Science Diet product. 6.7% as fed basis with 75% moisture equals 27% carbs on a dry matter basis per Wellness customer service line. In contrast the equivalent SD product contains 16% carbs on a DM basis. Other adult products range from
22.7-23.2% carbs on a DM basis.
That is completely incorrect, as proven in an earlier message. The Wellness product under discussion (canned salmon and turkey) contained ... equivalent SD product contains 16% carbs on a DM basis. Other adult products range from 22.7-23.2% carbs on a DM

You are flat out lying now (and I'm surprised that Hill's doesn't know how much damage you are doing to their rep on the newsgroups and yank you.) For one thing, you don't even have the moisture content correct. It's 78%. I have a can of Wellness Turkey and Salmon right in front of me. How convenient that you fudge the numbers to change the outcome. I notice you didn't provide any info on the SD product you are supposedly comparing it to, and I bet I know why. Lying by omission is just as bad as making things up. You've done both.

Megan
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