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Steve Crane gets caught in this lie:
In contrast the equivalent SD product contains 16% carbs on a DM basis.

A quick check on the Hills website reveals that the only food that contains 16% carbs is kitten* food. This is not even remotely "comparable" to Wellness Turkey and Salmon, which is an "adult maintenance" food. All the *comparable SD "adult maintenance" foods contain over 22% carbs. You are pathetic.
Megan
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com
Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.picturetrail.com/zuzu22
"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way."
- W.H. Murray
Steve Crane gets caught in this lie:

In contrast the equivalent SD product contains 16% carbs on a DM basis.

A quick check on the Hills website reveals that the only food that contains 16% carbs is kitten* food. This ... is an "adult maintenance" food. All the *comparable SD "adult maintenance" foods contain over 22% carbs. You are pathetic. Megan

Very good!!!
My point exactly! The "All Life Stage" food used as a comparison has only been through a growth feeding trial. Consequently it is appropriate to compare one growth food to another. Since the food was designed to meet the needs of a growing kitten and pass the feeding trials for growth, and NOT the needs of an adult cat, it is indeed a growth food.
Regardless, the Wellness food in question (canned salmon & turkey) was not 16% carbohydrate but rather, according to Wellness customer help line (1-800-225-0904) is 27% carbohydrate DMB and thus higher than all canned adult Science Diet products.
Now who's being pathetic? The truth is that Wellness has MORE carbs than Science Diet Adult Feline products.

That is completely incorrect, as proven in an earlier message. ... Other adult products range from 22.7-23.2% carbs on a DM

You are flat out lying now (and I'm surprised that Hill's doesn't know how much damage you are doing to ... I bet I know why. Lying by omission is just as bad as making things up. You've done both. Megan

Obviously you need to learn to read a bit better. Look again at that can of food. it says MAXIMUM moisture is 78%. That's why I carefully explained the difference between Guaranteed Analysis, As Fed Analysis and Dry Matter Basis analysis in a previous post. I don't care if you believe me or not, call Wellness (1-800-225-0904) and ask them yourself what the dry matter basis carbohydrate percentage is. While you're at it, why not ask them what the calcium and phos levels are as well - in DRY MATTER values.
After you make that call you can post your apology in the same manner you posted the snide remark above. We'll be waiting to see if have the intestinal fortitude to apologize as loudly as you castigate.
And the extent to which each has played a role is basically unknown. Further, I doubt you are arguing that a high-carb diet has directly led to increased longevity?

Quite correct. I doubt it has anything to do, with carbs, or without, but rather the vastly increased knowledge we have in nutrition, and the rest of veterinary care. A good example of that was the advent of properly preserved foods in the late 50's and early 60's which virtually eliminated the most common cause of disease in cats in those days. Rancid fats were wreaking havoc with cat health.
Additionally, I think that cats have moved 'primarily' to dry diets in the USA, but not necessarily in other places ... and cats fed wet food. Ideally one would compare wet and dry foods with the same nutritional composition, of course.

Such a study would be terrific. I would love to see that done. Unfortunately I don't believe there are any records available in any kind of source where that information could be obtained. I do know that renal failure is equally as big an issue in EU and Japan as it is here. At least in terms of the percentage of deaths attributed to it. I have no idea if diabetes rates are similar. Obesity is nearly identical in EU, South Africa, and Japan as it is here.
That's surprising. Why is that so? I tended to assume that the manufacturer would choose a certain profit margin and keep to that for most items.

Exactly. The margin remains the same. Let's assume the manufacturer and the retailer both have a 20% profit PBIT. A typical cat will consume about 450 kcals per day. Dry food is typically 1,400 kcals per pound and thus a cat will eat a pound every 3 days. About 120 pounds per year. At $1 a pound that's about $120. Conversely a typical 5.5oz can of cat food has about 170 kcals and a cat will consume about 2.5 cans per day. 5.5 oz cans sell for about $0.70 per can or about $1.75 per day or $635 per year. Thus a cat being fed dry food might generate about $25 a year profit and a cat eating canned food would generate about $127 per year profit.
Good job lying, Steve. That's the Guaranteed Analysis which all ... the recommendations. What else do you have up your sleeve?

Jon, Obviously you are missing some information. The numbers immediately below the guaranteed values are NOT DMB numbers. There is ... basis 6.7% dry matter basis 27.0%. I will graciously accept your apology anytime. You may call them yourself at 1-800-225-0904

Did you miss this Jon C?
on
23 Jan 2004:
Did you miss this Jon C?

shpxurnq
You're plonked, too. More noise. You can't change people's minds. I used to think you had some good info, but the more I read the more I see you have an agenda and you're a dickhead, to boot.

Cheryl
Trapped like rats. In a chia-pet.
MIB II
Sheesh, I'm beginning to think you and Gaubster are evil twins.
After you make that call you can post your apology in the same manner you posted the snide remark above. We'll be waiting to see if have the intestinal fortitude to apologize as loudly as you castigate.

I don't apologize to people that lie and fudge the numbers to suit their own purposes. You used the guaranteed analysis numbers, but used the as fed moisture content to come up with your carb percentage. Why don't you use the as fed numbers with your claimed 75% moisture content? When you do that the numbers are quite different. As fed numbers straight from the website:
=A0=A0
Protein:13.0%
Fat:8.7%=A0=A0
Fiber:0.1% =A0=A0=A0=A0
Ash:1.8%=A0=A0=A0
Magnesium:0.02%
Taurine:0.2%
Do the math and get back to us.
Megan
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com
Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.picturetrail.com/zuzu22
"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way."
- W.H. Murray
Sheesh, I'm beginning to think you and Gaubster are evil twins.

After you make that call you can post your apology ... the intestinal fortitude to apologize as loudly as you castigate.

I don't apologize to people that lie and fudge the numbers to suit their own purposes.

Megan,You do have an opportunity to prove you have some morals and some intestinal fortitude. The whole discussion was about the carb levels in Wellness versus other foods. Jon C, Lauren, and you all claimed I lied about the levels of carbs in Wellness foods. My original post merely looked at the carbs from a GA basis, which has been explained to you and others elsewhere on this NG. No matter how you attempt to twist the numbers using any moisture level you choose it is totally a moot point.

Wellness provided the actual numbers which turned out to be much higher than my original estimates. Using GA's I estimated only 16% carbs, as it turns out Wellness own actual analysis shows 27% carbs, higher than any Science Diet adult canned food. I have posted their 800 number in several posts for you to verify that figure. Nobody lied or fudged numbers. The process and methodology of estimating DMB levels of any nutrient from available GA values is well described and commonly used.
The facts are quite clear the Wellness product under discussion has higher carb levels than ANY Science Diet adult canned food. Now you can either admit your error and show everyone you are an adult, or you continue illustrating to everyone what a child you are. Make your choice, but be prepared to live with it.
on 23 Jan 2004:

Did you miss this Jon C?

shpxurnq You're plonked, too. More noise. You can't change people's minds. I used to think you had some good info, but the more I read the more I see you have an agenda and you're a dickhead, to boot.

Interesting Cheryl,
I provided hard data and a solid explanation of the process of analyzing foods. I provided actual numbers directly from Wellness and I have provided the 800 number about half a dozen times so everyone here can verify it. You are correct, I cannot change minds, especially those that have decided to ignore facts and follow emotional judgements. That has never been my intention by participating in these NG's. My intention has been to provide some hard factual data and some science backed materials based on reality to balance some of the the fringe lunatic ideas that are often proferred on this NG. What irks some on this NG is that the facts get in the way of emotionally retained ideas.
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