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Additionally, I think that cats have moved 'primarily' to dry ... and dry foods with the same nutritional composition, of course.

Such a study would be terrific. I would love to see that done. Unfortunately I don't believe there are any records available in any kind of source where that information could be obtained.

Yes; such a logitudinal study would be a bugger to carry out, and it's very unlikely that the data are available otherwise.
I do know that renal failure is equally as big an issue in EU and Japan as it is here. ... idea if diabetes rates are similar. Obesity is nearly identical in EU, South Africa, and Japan as it is here.

First point - 'EU' isn't a country, and the member countries are certainly not homogeneous! But moving on...
If find it surprising that obesity is (nearly) identical in EU, SA, Japan and US. What's the source for this statement? I'm especially surprised given the recent media coverage of the remarkably high cat obesity rates in the US (echoing the obesity in the human population, indeed). It's the case that more cats are kept inside in the USA (vs UK, the only other place I've much direct knowledge of cats therein), and I hazard a guess that more cats are fed on wet food, rather than dry, in the UK versus US. These difference suggest to me that obesity would be expected to be a much larger (ha! Literally!) problem in the USA versus UK. I would be very suprised indeed if this were not so.
That's surprising. Why is that so? I tended to assume ... certain profit margin and keep to that for most items.

Exactly. The margin remains the same. Let's assume the manufacturer and the retailer both have a 20% profit PBIT. A ... might generate about $25 a year profit and a cat eating canned food would generate about $127 per year profit.

OK, since you are in with the in crowd I'll accept those figures for the moment.
But, it ain't going to be that simple, is it? Big business isn't about altriusm, as I snippily suggested elsewhere in this thread, it's about shifting units. The Vast Evil Empires of Cat Food-dom wouldn't make dry foods if they were actually making 20% of the profit they make on wet foods...
Cynic, moi?
Steve.
Yes; such a logitudinal study would be a bugger to carry out, and it's very unlikely that the data are available otherwise.

I do know that renal failure is equally as big ... in EU, South Africa, and Japan as it is here.

First point - 'EU' isn't a country, and the member countries are certainly not homogeneous! But moving on...

Agreed, And there is no question about the utter lack of homogenicity in the country members.
If find it surprising that obesity is (nearly) identical in EU, SA, Japan and US. What's the source for this ... larger (ha! Literally!) problem in the USA versus UK. I would be very suprised indeed if this were not so.

The source was data presented at the World Small Animal Veterinary Congress in Thailand last fall. Interestingly Japan obesity levels are the same as the US, yet canned foods are about double the percentage of total feed. Nowhere near conclusive in any way or course. Japanese consumers are the pickiest on earth and they prefer to do a little shopping each day for that days consumtion. You can't sell a 20 pound bag of cat food in Japan. By far the most common package of dry are the smallest possible choices 1 kg, 2.5 kg etc.
OK, since you are in with the in crowd I'll accept those figures for the moment. But, it ain't going ... Cat Food-dom wouldn't make dry foods if they were actually making 20% of the profit they make on wet foods...

You are forgetting a much more powerful driving force - the consumer, who wants convenience, easy to carry, no messy smells, simple to dump into a bowl and easy to live with. While a 20 pound bag of cat food would last a single cat owner a couple months, they would have to lug home nearly 60+ pounds of cans, throw away the stinky cans each day etc.
Cynic, moi? Steve.

Nothing wrong with healthy cynicism = equally applied to all sides of the discussion.
As a note to my previous post, 11% fiber is way too much. It looks like Steve deliberately changed the numbers for Wellness canned and dry.
First point - 'EU' isn't a country, and the member countries are certainly not homogeneous! But moving on...

Agreed, And there is no question about the utter lack of homogenicity in the country members.

Heh.
If find it surprising that obesity is (nearly) identical in EU, SA, Japan and US. What's the source for this statement?

The source was data presented at the World Small Animal Veterinary Congress in Thailand last fall.

Hm, the devil's in the detail. It will be interesting to see whether that conference proceeding makes it to a real journal, or otherwise disappears up its own fundament.
Interestingly Japan obesity levels are the same as the US, yet canned foods are about double the percentage of total feed. Nowhere near conclusive in any way or course.

Indeed, so many factors will be in play here - I wonder what proportion of Japanese cats are kept exclusively indoors?
But, it ain't going to be that simple, is it? ... snippily suggested elsewhere in this thread, it's about shifting units.

You are forgetting a much more powerful driving force - the consumer, who wants convenience, easy to carry, no messy ... months, they would have to lug home nearly 60+ pounds of cans, throw away the stinky cans each day etc.

Indeed, but the consumer did not invent dry food...

Perhaps whichever company invented dry food did so well with the proudct (via the magic of consumer convenience et al) that all companies were forced to follow suit with their own crunchies, to avoid the erosion of their market share?
Anyway, the conveniences of dry food are such trivialities that any consumer who buys dry food purely out of 'convenience' should have Friskies rammed up their nose until their eyeballs pop out of their sockets. And what the cheezy niblets does 'easy to live with' mean? Doesn't argue or hog the bedclothes?
Steve.
Indeed, so many factors will be in play here - I wonder what proportion of Japanese cats are kept exclusively indoors?

In my experience, not that many. Most I met were indoor/outdoor cats. However, Japanese people tend to spoil their pets rotten. Small dogs (like Maltese terriers) are particularly spoiled. Cats are less so, but are still spoiled.
rona

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And subsequently available information was posted about the food(s) you recommended. Gaubster was right about the possibility of problems withyour suggested foods.

That was not what I was pointing out, however. Whether or not there are "possible problems" with the foods recommended ... there are more "possibleproblems" with the recommended foods than with Special Kitty, but the crux of thematter here was ignored.

It's not quite that simple. A suggestion was made for "better" foods based upon Laurens thinking of what consitutues a better food. In her case that is always very elementary ingredient examination. Subsequently it was discovered that at least two of the four foods (the other two are unwilling to share nutrients levels) were excessive for calcium and phosphorus. Such excesses are innappropriate according to the Diplomates of the Americna College of Veterinary Nutrition who members established Key Nutitional Factors for gorthw, adult and senior cats. Lauren objected that someone would "dis" her food suggestions based upon nutrient values.

Subsequently a specific food was offered on another thread. Lauren and Jon C both accused me of lying about the carb levels in that food. Both were proven wrong and the 800 number to that food company was offerred for anyone on the NG to prove the reported values correct. I suspect, although I cannot prove, that Lauren fully knew she was in error, but instead of admiting the erro she chose to launch on a campaign of name calling suggesting I should "eat ***". As I commented at the time it was hardly a mature reaction to discovering she was in error.
Analyzing a food based on ingredients is like third grade

math. Some people prefer to stay stuck at that level ... it would illustrate to themselves the errors they made originally.

So in essence what you and Gaubster are complaining about here is that you think Lauren should have recommended other foods than the ones she did,when the OP asked about feeding something better than Special Kitty?[/nq]I am not "complaining" in any way about what foods she recommends. That is certainly her right to recommend any food she chooses. What is in clear error and illustrative of her immaturity is that when she is faced with hard facts a) excess calcium and phosphorus and b) carb levels which were actually higher than the food she often denigrates, she chose to ignore the facts began a name calling campaign. It would be my opinion that sharing factual information has some value.

Instead of admitting she was wrong about the calcium and phosphorus levels and the carb levels of the third food in question she responds by suggesting others are "liars" and that I should "eat ***". I have no objection to any recommendation and by the same token she should be adult enough to take criticism of her recommendations when other disagree with recommendations. Instead she reverts to name calling and obfuscation to the nth degree. The NG's are open for anyone.

If you make suggestions or posts notes and someone disagrees you should be expecting counterpoint to your suggestions and an adult will take this as open and honest debate. Unfortunately when challenged with facts she cannot refute she appears unable to accept such criticism in an adult fashion.
It's not quite that simple. A suggestion was made for "better" foods based upon Laurens thinking of what consitutues a ... two of the four foods (the other two are unwilling to share nutrients levels) were excessive for calcium and phosphorus.

And Special Kitty is not? I still fail to see how you can reasonably separate the recommendations made from the context.
Such
excesses are innappropriate according to the Diplomates of the Americna College of Veterinary Nutrition who members established Key Nutitional Factors for gorthw, adult and senior cats. Lauren objected that someone would "dis" her food suggestions based upon nutrient values.

That may well be, but the question Lauren was addressing asked for a better alternative to Special Kitty. You take issue with her recommendations, which of course anyone has a right to do, but ignore the actual question raised: are these foods a better choice than Special Kitty? If you base your criticism on calcium and phosphorous levels, are these greater or less than Special Kitty?
Subsequently a specific food was offered on another thread. Lauren and Jon C both accused me of lying about the ... "eat ***". As I commented at the time it was hardly a mature reaction to discovering she was in error.

I think what you and Gaubster don't want to admit is that Wellness and Felidae are still in all likely to be better choices than Special Kitty, because you prefer to disagree with Lauren. I would have liked to see your criticisms of the recommended foods placed in the proper context, that's all. I'm not arguing with the information itself that has been presented.
It's not quite that simple. A suggestion was made for ... to share nutrients levels) were excessive for calcium and phosphorus.

And Special Kitty is not? I still fail to see how you can reasonablyseparate the recommendations made from the context.

OK
I think I understand what you are saying - were suggestions better or worse than Special Kitty brand pet food? Unfortunately I cannot remember why the OP was using that food in the first place, nor am I familiar with the brand. If the OP meant Purina Special Care Kitten, then I can comment on that food as I have analyticals for that food. That still does not negate nor disqualify comments about the foods that were recommended. It does in no way imply that comments about any food offered for any purpose are not fair game for commentary.
The issue here is one of probity and maturity. If you venture an opinion you should be prepared to support it by factual data and solid nutritional reasons. Instead when comments were made as to the quality of the suggested products, the poster chose instead to revert to name calling and personal attacks, none of which provides valuable information to readers on this NG.
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on 02 Feb 2004:

Sooner you killfile Crane and the Glob, the better your life will be...don't waste the bandwidth.

LOL I have to agree. Both are worthless. Cheryl Trapped like rats. In a chia-pet. MIB II

I wouldn't agree with either statement. I don't read much of Gaubster so I cannot comment on him, but I do find Steve Crane to be honest and knowledgeable. There is very much a dichotomy here with much animosity between the two groups. I value information from both but I do wish the people involved were more respectful towards each other. I sometimes wonder why any discussion between the two groups has to become an insult-match with whomever hurling the most hurtful insults feeling like they've won.

I've also exhibited some not-so-respectful behaviour here and I cringe everytime I think of some of the things I've said. I'd hate to think that someone (even a stranger) might always associate me with some of my nastier posts. Well, there is one person (whom I will not name, though this person is an idiot that's a big hint!) that could think I'm evil incarnate and I wouldn't give a rat's ass.
rona

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