My family had an AKC Kennel when I was a boy (Schipperke's) ANYWAY, the question is this, when I grew up no one (that we knew) boxed their dogs, or considered it. I'm not saying it's not a better way, but everything I've been able to find (info-wise) has been from people selling boxes, err. a crates, or people with less than 5 years & 5 dogs experience (kids). I'd like to hear from some of the old(er) folks out there that have had/trained/breed dogs longer than most of the people here w/opinions have been eating solid food.

What was/is wrong with the OLD ways ? Or, is it more a matter of lets do it faster, & "I don't want the dernd' dog mussin' my stuff", As I recall we puppy proofed a room & let them "go for it". Then again, we's just simple counrty folk, we only trained horses, & dogs & kept a GC line, I doubt we REALLY knew anything..But I diverge.

Oh & Any impartial info (web address) on the subjust would be nice too.

Javahead

"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatoos nunc"
We gladly feast on those who would subdue us.
Not just pretty words.
1 2 3 4 5
Javahead wrotes:
. What was/is wrong with the OLD ways ? Or, is it more a matter of lets do it faster, & "I don't want the dernd' dog mussin' my stuff",

More people work full time away from the home these days. No longer is mom home all day with the kids and the dog. I also think safety has become more of a concern in general, but in this case, for the dogs. It's not just the damage a young dog can do to things, it's the damage a young dog can do to itself.
As I recall we puppy proofed a room & let them "go for it".

Who has a room they can afford to have trashed? Who wants to set bad habits of allowing elimination indoors? Who wants to clean that up? Who wants to exile a puppy in a room, instead of integrating them into the whole house?

Then
again, we's just simple counrty folk, we only trained horses, & dogs & kept a GC line, I doubt we REALLY knew anything..But I diverge.

If you were "country folk", it sounds like someone was HOME, working the land. That presence alone allows for a bit more flexibility in puppy raising.
Janet Boss
Best Friends Dog Obedience
"Nice Manners for the Family Pet"
Voted "Best of Baltimore 2001" - Baltimore Magazine www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Javahead wrotes:

. What was/is wrong with the OLD ways ? Or, ... & "I don't want the dernd' dog mussin' my stuff",

More people work full time away from the home these days. No longer is mom home all day with the ... just the damage a young dog can do to things, it's the damage a young dog can do to itself.

This may be true, but I guess I feel, if you need to spend to much time away from your pet, you shouln't have one. Everyone need to decide for themselfs what "too much time is".
As I recall we puppy proofed a room & let them "go for it".

Who has a room they can afford to have trashed? Who wants to set bad habits of allowing elimination indoors? Who wants to clean that up? Who wants to exile a puppy in a room, instead of integrating them into the whole house?

My Mistake, Paper training was the norm in those days, it did have problems, as does Crate training.
Then

again, we's just simple counrty folk, we only trained horses, & dogs & kept a GC line, I doubt we REALLY knew anything..But I diverge.

If you were "country folk", it sounds like someone was HOME, working the land. That presence alone allows for a bit more flexibility in puppy raising.

Yes, then, as now for us, someone is ALWAYS home.
Thank you for your prompt and thought provoking ideas & comments.
Janet Boss Best Friends Dog Obedience "Nice Manners for the Family Pet" Voted "Best of Baltimore 2001" - Baltimore Magazine www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

Javahead

"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatoos nunc"
We gladly feast on those who would subdue us.
Not just pretty words.
Hey Javahead -
I confess that I am not over the age you seem to have set for your bar, but I do come from a long line of animal folks, of both the companion and wild animal variety.
Regardless, I just want to point out that any tool or method can be used for good or for evil Emotion: wink in the right wrong hands. I think that there aredefinitely people out there that use the crate as an excuse to leave their poor dog alone for hours upon hours, but there are also people out there that leave their dogs outside without shelter in all weather, there are people that whack their dogs, there are people that can turn any tool or method into a means to create hurt or excuses for neglect. Heck, there are even people who can turn a newsgroup into a means to attack, let alone, say, some of the training collars out there and some of the systems that almost (and sometimes more than almost) encourage hurting the animals.

The same is true of pretty much any teaching or training tool for pretty much any species. I had a teacher that could turn any classroom object into a paddle, and I had other teachers that could turn almost any classroom situation into a learning experience in a good way.
People who care enough to explore all the available tools and methods throughout their careers or lives, educate themselves about methods and equipment, and talk to other people to establish good ways to use those items, are generally using those things in good ways. People that read three pages of a housetraining book in the bookstore and run out and get a crate and a puppy from a pet store probably are doing more harm than good.
It's all in the user, IMHO, not the equipment. As the cliche goes, a master carpenter never complains about his tools.
katie
www.katiek9.com
Javahead wrotes:

I am no breeder, never bred anything. I haven't even lived with many dogs, so feel free to skip this post alltogether =) I have some views on crating dogs however.Without a crate my second dog got housebroken pretty quickly I think. He was basically housebroken at a little over 3 months old (he had two accidents after that). He was a summerpuppy and we stayed one extra week with his mom who lives in a house, both factors made housebreaking easier. I beleive you can usually get a puppy housebroken faster with a crate, but I am lazy and doubt I will ever try it. I want to sleep through the night without walking a puppy.

I want the puppy to follow me around or do it's own thing, whereever it wants, during the day, if it has an accident then I clean it up. The puppy should fit into my normal life, and it is worth a few accidents and chewed up things. A puppy isn't an adult dog, so naturally I don't treat it as such, but I do not walk around checking the puppy the whole time. I don't beleive that amount of attention can be good for a puppy. I don't want to make housebreaking into a project and spend a lot of energy and time on it, I prefer spending my time doing other stuff with the puppy =)
I have had the opportunity to be home with my puppies, and that makes it a lot easier, but the people that can't be home with their puppies for more than a long weekend or a couple of weeks, in most cases manage well simply by puppyproofing.
Rosa
I'm imagining how this question would sound when applied to any innovation whether in the field of technology or psychology or anything else.
My mother always used a typewriter when I was little. No one had a word processor or even considered it. I'm not saying it isn't a better way, but everything I've been able to find info-wise has been from people selling computers or people with only a few years experience using computers.
Back when I was a child, schools gave whippings to children who misbehaved. I'm not saying that lectures, detentions and extra work don't work, but everything I've been able to find shows that people who use these methods have only been using them for a generation or two. What's wrong with the OLD beat the crap out of 'em way of disciplining kids?

Point is that some old ideas are still good ones. Some old ideas have been superceded with better ideas. There's nothing wrong with your method of housetraining dogs if it works for you. There's nothing wrong with crate training a dog if that appeals. But before you form any opinions about crate training, find out what it really is. (Hint: It doesn't involve locking the dog in a box all day and never paying any attention to it.)
Lia
Huh? I never get up for a puppy, They sleep in a crate next to my bed. Why would not using a crate allow you to sleep? Are you saying paper train? Ick.
I want the puppy to follow me around or do it's own thing, whereever it wants, during the day, if it has an accident then I clean it up.

You have the wrong idea about crate training. No puppy is crated, or kept in another room, as long as I'm home, awake and not in the shower.
The puppy should fit into my normal life, and it is worth a few accidents and chewed up things.

How about DANGEROUS things? Crating is used when the owner can't be watching - not to keep the dog in 24/7.
A puppy isn't an adult dog, so naturally I
don't treat it as such, but I do not walk around checking the puppy the whole time. I don't beleive that amount of attention can be good for a puppy.

I've never had to walk around checking on a puppy - they're always at my feet!
I don't want to make housebreaking into a project and spend a lot of energy and time on it, I prefer spending my time doing other stuff with the puppy =)

What does any of this have to do with using a crate? Janet Boss
Best Friends Dog Obedience
"Nice Manners for the Family Pet"
Voted "Best of Baltimore 2001" - Baltimore Magazine www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Huh? I never get up for a puppy, They sleep in a crate next to my bed.Why would not using a crate allow you to sleep? Are you saying paper train?Ick.

My puppies have not been able to hold it during the night. If they had been crated they would either have woken me up, or done their business in the crate, not nice.
My dogs also like to change places during the night, they wake up and move between dogbed, corner, sofa, bed and so on

So define watching. To me watching implies that you are paying attention to the puppy in the first place, and maybe doing something else on the side.

Without a crate you puppy proof and puppy proof, I still pick away some stuff when I leave - the remotes and phones and other things that have been in a lot of contact with us humans. They seem to be the most desired and irresistible things to chew on. I am pretty sloppy so I forget stuff around, and the dogs have gotten themselves into dangerous stuff only once that I can remember. If you don't have a total destructodog, there aren't really that many dangerous things that can't be removed untill you trust the dog.
Dogs that chew up walls and eat furniture are another matter - then you more or less have to crate them.
A puppy isn't an adult dog, so naturally I

don't treat it as such, but I do not walk ... that amount of attention can be good for a puppy.

I've never had to walk around checking on a puppy - they're always at myfeet!

I've had puppies that would go into another room to explore on their own =). When Hobbes sister was still with her mom and Hobbe, I had to run after them every now and then to see what they would do because we didn't want them to chew on the furniture or rugs in the other room. I wish they had just stayed at my feet =). My dogs don't have to be near me as long as they know where I am. Yala had a phase when she wanted to be everywhere with me, but it passed.
I don't want to make housebreaking into a project and ... prefer spending my time doing other stuff withthe puppy =)

What does any of this have to do with using a crate? Janet Boss Best Friends Dog Obedience "Nice Manners for the Family Pet" Voted "Best of Baltimore 2001" - Baltimore Magazine www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

It hasn't got much to do with the crate itself, more with the advice concerning when to use a crate that I've read on ng's and webpages. Things like how you should always keep an eye on the puppy or else crate it, that would mean a lot of crating for a puppy in my case.

Rosa
Without a crate you puppy proof and puppy proof,

You do that with a crate too. The crate, when used properly, is simply a tool that helps an owner with basic training while keeping the puppy safe. That doesn't mean you can get around puppy proofing, as it only takes a minute for a puppy to find something dangerous, but it does mean that you have a place that you know is safe where you can keep the puppy when you cannot watch/interact with them (as Janet mentioned, in the shower, for example.)
Personally, I think a combination of crate and ex-pen are the best tools, and when I used both with my most recent puppy, I had a wonderful and easy time with him. He actually spent very little time in the crate or the pen, but I had them when I needed them, and I will never raise a puppy any other way again.
It hasn't got much to do with the crate itself, more with the advice concerning when to use a crate ... on the puppy or else crate it, that would mean a lot of crating for a puppy in my case.[/nq]Well, I found that it didn't mean that much crating in my case. At night, the crate was a safe place for him to sleep - he was crate trained from the breeder's house so I didn't have much transition period there - during the day, he wasn't crated except for travel or at agility class/trials. Instead, he hung out with me as much as possible, and when I had to concentrate on work or whatever and couldn't watch/interact with him, he was in the ex-pen with something to chew on and some toys.

If I was just watching TV or on the 'puter, he was right here with me, doing basically the same thing as if he was in the pen. No fuss, no muss, and he learned patience and how his behavior controlled his destiny (bark - stay in pen, quiet - come out of pen, etc.) which made just dealing with him on a daily basis a lot more simple, not to mention how it worked to our benefit when it came to agility. Honestly, I don't think unless one has tried crate training that one really can understand the benefits.
Christy
Show more