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ok, thanks. For everyone though-please realize some of us are alphabet deficient. I can't even figure out personalized license plates..plus, while I know a lot of the dog breeds and can figure out most of them, I'd rather they be spelled out so I know the difference!
New question. If I went tomorrow and purchased an Innotek electronic collar, say the ADV-300P, how would I best implement it?

IOW would the recommendation be:
a) take dogs to outside location thought to induce marking behavior and either stimulate or tone all instances of leg-lifting? I've seen Joe Joe squat, rarely but he has done it, so should I aim to erase all leg-lifting?
b) stimulate or tone only when I suspect Joe Joe is about to mark Fancy?

c) other?
Joe Joe, for all he seems stubborn, is pretty soft. He corrects easily in all circumstances but this. His feelings are easily injured and something as mundane as a raised voice or tossing a handful of treats (the latter is for real) can cause him to duck and retreat to his crate.

The collar option seems like the best quick-fix option available to me at the moment and I'm perfectly willing to give it a try. I'm just afraid of causing harm. Not the physical kind as I'm not dumb enough to lay on a shock button but the mental kind where the device's use backfires and causes fear-related behavior.
I'm thinking that an intentional setup of the perfect surroundings would be better to try at first than just waiting at home. Today proved that something as little as different surroundings causes his marking behavior to go into high gear. I just don't want to screw it up so badly that I've not only sentenced him to rehoming but caused some kind of mental confusion or fearfulness in the process.

Tara
I do NOT want to lose him but if he has to go then its kinder for him to do it sooner rather than later.

And he'll be returned and then returned again if this behaviour isn't corrected now. I know that you know better than to believe someone else will give him more chances than you have.

By aversions, I meant that you may have to do more than call him off or give him a verbal interruption. It sounds like Joe Joe needs some immediate and unequivocal limits that distraction or NILIF will not supply.
I would consult a trainer knowledgeable in practical aversion techniques for some hands-on before giving up.

Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
And he'll be returned and then returned again if this behaviour isn't corrected now. I know that you know better than to believe someone else will give him more chances than you have.

Maybe but probably not as he'd only be rehomed to a one-pet household. That would have to be the stipulation otherwise it'd make zero sense to hand him off to someone else.
By aversions, I meant that you may have to do more than call him off or give him a verbal interruption. It sounds like Joe Joe needs some immediate and unequivocal limits that distraction or NILIF will not supply.

I'm looking into obtaining an Innotek collar tomorrow. I see that Petsmart (the only store locally that carries e-collars) doesn't carry the one I was looking at online but does carry a more expensive one with a bunch of stimulation levels and tonal correction as well. Unfortunately its a $200 collar but if I'm going to get one then I want one with enough levels to find a comfortable but effective one for him and not be locked into something more restrictive. Of course this will be a new learning curve for me but I think it might just work for the time being.
I would consult a trainer knowledgeable in practical aversion techniques for some hands-on before giving up.

If the e-collar fails or if I feel that I'm screwing him up then I'll hunt down a trainer or behaviorist. We have tons of trainers here and several dog clubs but I only know something positive about one (one of the two I had with Summer and liked), negative stuff about many, total curiosity about many more (as in what are their creds?) and so on.

I also find that one person's recommendation of a "great trainer" is my equivalent of a quack and sometimes vice versa. I don't relish finding someone reputable, experienced, likable (yes I need to like them enough to be able to freely converse with them and not feel condescended to), affordable and available. One huge task at a time please.

Tara
I also find that one person's recommendation of a "great trainer" is my equivalent of a quack and sometimes vice ... to freely converse with them and not feel condescended to), affordable and available. One huge task at a time please.

I agree - for something like this, I'd never go to a trainer that I didn't personally know and have trust in.

Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
New question. If I went tomorrow and purchased an Innotek electronic collar, say the ADV-300P, how would I best implement ... erase all leg-lifting? b) stimulate or tone only when I suspect Joe Joe is about to mark Fancy? c) other?[/nq]Given your concerns about his being able to get the message and differentiate, I would make it as black and white as possible. I would correct any peeing around Fancy. Period. If you correct any leg-lifting, he is going to get a "no peeing outside" message before he can figure out it is just the lifting, since he doesn't naturally squat much but lifts on everything outside. If you only correct when he is about to mark Fancy, you might not catch it all.

Why not just have a no peeing around Fancy rule? Go mark a bush, fine. Any leg lifts or pee drips when within a certain distance of Fancy, whether it looks like he is going to try to overmark a spot or mark Fancy herself, and he is corrected. Even if he just picks the bush right next to Fancy, I would correct it so he learns never to pee when within shooting range of Fancy and you can feel safe having them out playing without worrying that she is going to come in with pee on her either deliberately or by accident.

Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy, so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay
in thread "dumbbutlearning" (Email Removed) whittled the following words:
ok, thanks. For everyone though-please realize some of us are alphabet deficient. I can't even figure out personalized license plates..plus, ... dog breeds and can figure out most of them, I'd rather they be spelled out so I know the difference!

I'm sorry, I knew Tara knew what I was talking about, and never thought anyone else was listening. I thought the world had me killfiled by now.
in message
Using an electronic collar, something I was considering purchasing anyway for other reasons, would still require my supervision because I'd ... correction or not understand it at all and its my current opinion that he's notunderstanding why I call him off.

I'm going to be late for work if I don't get off the computer, but - I see another concern with the idea of using an e-collar in this situation:

Using an e-collar to correct for any behaviour that involves another animal or humans runs the risk of the correction being connected with the wrong thing.
IOW, he could connect the correction simply with being near Fancy, or with Fancy herself. If he connects the correction with being near her, you could create an aversion to her - and if he connects it with Fancy, you run a risk of creating aggressive feelings towards her.

The risk is higher with an e-collar than with verbal or other corrections, because the correction is harder to connect to the source.
in thread "Sionnach" (Email Removed) whittled the following words:
Using an e-collar to correct for any behaviour that involves another animal or humans runs the risk of the correction ... higher with an e-collar than with verbal or other corrections, because the correction is harder to connect to the source.

I agree with this. Especially since he's soft.
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