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New question. If I went tomorrow and purchased an Innotek electronic collar, say the ADV-300P, how would I best implement ... a) take dogs to outside location thought to induce marking behavior and either stimulate or tone all instances of leg-lifting?

The FIRST thing you would need to do - and you may know this, but just in case - is take JJ outside WITHOUT FANCY, work with him to get the correction adjusted to his level, and then teach him what the e-collar means. You You need to know how he'll react to it and what level he responds to, and HE needs to understand that the collar is a correction, not just a random jolt out of the blue, before you actually start working with it. And see my post above about possible unintended consequences.

ARGH! much more I'd like to say, but I MUST go to work now!!
in thread "Sionnach" (Email Removed) whittled the following words:
Using an e-collar to correct for any behaviour that involves another animal or humans runs the risk of the correction ... higher with an e-collar than with verbal or other corrections, because the correction is harder to connect to the source.

The advantage of the remote collar is that she can correct him as it happens (which MUST be done) and not a second later. She knows it's going to happen, so he should be either on leash, or the two should be kept separated. I think the problems with the e-collar are exactly as Sarah mentioned above. Especially for a soft dog.
Personally, I would work on appropriate marking., Make it clear, you will allow times and places to mark, on YOUR choice, NOT his. He would be on a leash with ample opportunity.
Yes, it takes work, supervision, and tenacity.
I'm going to be late for work if I don't get off the computer, but - I see another concern ... higher with an e-collar than with verbal or other corrections, because the correction is harder to connect to the source.

Yeah, that's why I was originally thinking of correcting leg-lifting behavior and praising squatting bheavior. Eventually trying to eliminate leg-lifting completely.
Paula suggested correcting for any peeing around Fancy and while I understand the concept I'm slightly concerned that he'll just associate the correction with being in her vicinity in general.

Tara
Given your concerns about his being able to get the message and differentiate, I would make it as black and ... about to mark Fancy, you might not catch it all. Why not just have a no peeing around Fancy rule?

Thanks Paula. What about the possibility that he will associate correction with being near Fancy, not just with peeing near Fancy? Am I over-worrying?

Tara
in thread "Tee" (Email Removed) whittled the following words:
I'm going to be late for work if I don't ... because the correction is harder to connect to the source.

Yeah, that's why I was originally thinking of correcting leg-lifting behavior and praising squatting bheavior. Eventually trying to eliminate leg-lifting ... I understand the concept I'm slightly concerned that he'll just associate the correction with being in her vicinity in general.

I'm not sure you can eliminate leg lifting. I'm afraid he will associate your desire to stop him from leg lifting to his peeing entirely, and he may go to sneak peeing.
Allowing him time (with a command) where he can mark at will, and times when he MUST hold it, knowing he will have plenty of appropriate time later, near the beginning of the walk, and certainly at the end, he should come around.
The FIRST thing you would need to do - and you may know this, but just in case - is ... out of the blue, before you actually start working with it. And see my post above about possible unintended consequences.

I plan to work with him alone at first. I know I need to find the right level of stimulation, and it may be that the negative tone does the trick, for him first. I'm a bit confused on the comment regarding him needing to understand he's being corrected and not getting jolted out of the blue. I wouldn't intentionally jolt him for no reason but I hadn't planned to make myself terribly visible as the button-pressing person. Its been my understanding that dogs learn well from the correction itself and the act in which they're engaged in without any or much obvious human interference. IOW I'd thought the procedure should go:
Tara: wait on Joe Joe to do something undesirable and give him the stimulation we found that worked
Joe Joe: begin to do something undesirable, get toned, ignore the tone and receive a shock
Tara: praise for leaving/stopping the undesirable behavior

I had been thinking of purchasing an e-collar for help with getting him out of the trashcan, off the counters & off the back door. He is a terrible trash raider & counter cruiser. He knows its bad, he knows he gets a timeout, he knows the people get upset & yell and aren't very pleased with him when he gets into these things but his desire to indulge far exceeds his common sense or willpower in this. Scat strips, bitter apple and loud noises (he doesn't like loud noises) haven't worked, only temporarily interrupted him. Similar to the issue with Fancy.

He lunges at and body slams the french door when he decides its time to come in. If I don't immediately open the door he starts scratching up the glass like he's a cat and its a scratch pole. He has figured out that its a big no-no but he still engages in the behavior anyway.

Obviously there are some minor things I can work with the collar on in addition to the urination. I think that could be a good thing because it'll get him used to the collar faster and since he already knows the door & food things are no-nos then maybe having a collar correction accompany them will help him to make the collar/urination/Fancy connection more quickly.

I know I've thrown alot out there in the last 24 hours but please don't think I'm just going to go buy a collar and get button-happy. I know the collar itself isn't going to teach him anything and I also realize there's a large margin for error if improperly used so I will certainly be extremely careful and will continue to do research on e-collar methods online.

I'll also report daily on any progress or setbacks we've made and would very much appreciate continued input. I want this dog to stay, as does the rest of the family, and at this point I'm willing to try just about anything to make that happen.

Tara
The FIRST thing you would need to do - and ... it. And see my post above about possible unintended consequences.

I plan to work with him alone at first. I know I need to find the right level of stimulation, ... the rest of the family, and at this point I'm willing to try just about anything to make that happen.

This dog certainly has a lot of bad habits! Pulling on the lead, counter surfing, marking the other dog, scratching the doors, raiding the trash...tell me Tara, what is it about him that makes you WANT him?! You and your family must have a hell of a lot more patience than I do. My rescue's weird fear-based behaviors and lack of common sense drive me crazy sometimes, but on this list the only thing she does is pull on the lead, which is corrected by a Gentle Leader.
Did you mention how old he is? Do you think he's likely to grow out of any of this?
in thread "Janet Puistonen" (Email Removed) whittled the following words:
This dog certainly has a lot of bad habits! Pulling on the lead, counter surfing, marking the other dog, scratching ... Leader. Did you mention how old he is? Do you think he's likely to grow out of any of this?

I wondered this. Hopefully she's rehabbing him. Rescues often come with a lot of baggage. If he's not successful in her home, he's likely not to be successful in someone else's. Which is why she has to exhaust any and all options before making any hard line decisions.
This dog certainly has a lot of bad habits! Pulling on the lead, counter surfing, marking the other dog, scratching the doors, raiding the trash...

lots of dogs pull on lead and lots of owners are perfectly willing to put up with it. marking is a pretty serious problem (especially when it's being done to another dog), but my guess is that, like me, Tara doesn't see the other things on the above list as Big Deals. so what if he counter surfs and trash picks? BFD.
tell me Tara, what is it about him that makes you WANT him?!

i'm not Tara and wouldn't dream of trying to speak for her, but perhaps she likes him?
My rescue's weird fear-based behaviors and lack of common sense drive me crazy sometimes,

what is it about her that makes you want to her? seriously. why on earth would you put up with that sort of thing?
but on this list the only thing she does is pull on the lead, which is corrected by a Gentle Leader.

so some things drive you nuts and other things drive others nuts. amazing!
Did you mention how old he is? Do you think he's likely to grow out of any of this?

if anything, he's growing into it.

shelly
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