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lots of dogs pull on lead and lots of owners are perfectly willing to put up with it.

Most people in this forum are too interested in training to put up with it.

You've taken a poll?
My dogs might pull on lead when walked as a group, during the first couple of blocks. Those very specific circumstances. I live with it. (I am, however, working to eliminate the shrieking, spinning, leash-grabbing, dervish-dance they do when they first see the leashes. It's going to be a long summer.)
You think counter surfing and raiding the trash are acceptable behaviors? I'm surprised. I would think that for safety reasons alone you wouldn't accept them.

While I don't think they're acceptable behaviors, I've found it a lot easier to retrain myself than multiple dogs when I'm not directly supervising them. I don't leave anything on the counters and the trash is out of their reach. Problem solved.
But they'll still counter surf and raid the trash if given the opportunity.
Most people in this forum are too interested in training to put up with it.

that may be true, but i didn't say they weren't. i said most people. it's a big, wide world and i see dogs pulling on leads all the time. it doesn't seem to be a deal breaker for those owners.
Now I disagree. Marking outdoors on things like trees, fire hydrants, fences, telephone poles is perfectly acceptable to me.

i should have said "inappropriate" marking. clearly, what Joe Joe is doing is inappropriate.
You think counter surfing and raiding the trash are acceptable behaviors?

this is my general response to counter surfing:

in my house, it isn't a Big Deal (apparently, not in Tara's, either). i'm sure we aren't alone in that. i prefer to deal with it by maintenance, not training.
I'm surprised. I would think that for safety reasons alone you wouldn't accept them.

like?
Uh, did you see the ?

i did. i thought it was passive-aggressive. apparently, a multitude of rudnesses can be excused by smilies and grins.
Frankly, to do a good deed by giving a difficult placement a decent home.

that is the last* reason i'd take a dog into my home. not that i *truly question your decision, as it ain't my business.
I'm hoping she'll grow on me. And hoping she'll gain some common sense and become less fearful.

good luck with that. seriously. fear issues can be a bugger to work with.
Shelly, I wasn't criticizing Tara, for doG's sake. More congratulating her on her forbearance. Obviously I assume she likes him. Obviously I know that we all tolerate different things.

and, obviously, i take issue with the subtext of your previous post. that's my prerogative.
Chill.

bossy much?

shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com /
http://letters-to-esther.blogspot.com / (updated 7/10/05)
in thread shelly (Email Removed) whittled the following words:
in my house, it isn't a Big Deal (apparently, not in Tara's, either). i'm sure we aren't alone in that. i prefer to deal with it by maintenance, not training.[/nq]
It my house that is NOT acceptable, and simply not going to happen. I suppose wearing a muzzle and antijump harness to prevent that would be maintenence. But regardless, it's a BIG deal.
I didn't read her as saying that she'd accept them, but rather that they're not a big deal.

in my case, counter surfing is truly not a deal, big or otherwise. i couldn't care less if the bratty dog cruises my counter top for tidbits (she's a damnfine crumber). if she did it at others' houses, it would be different. she wouldn't dream of it, though, not even at my mom's, where she is Allowed to get away with bloody murder.
I tend to break it down between problems that can be managed until they can be corrected (trash raiding), problems ... the leash). Some people can't live with a dog that sheds like crazy. Some people can't live with weewee pads.

i have deal breakers and non-deal breakers. human aggression is a deal breaker. pretty much everything else is somewhere on the maintenance training continuum, none of which are deal breakers.
I think the question under discussion is what's tolerable, not what's acceptable.

yes. clearly, the other stuff is tolerable to Tara. why criticize her for that? she's the one who lives with the dog, not you or me or Janet.

shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com /
http://letters-to-esther.blogspot.com / (updated 7/10/05)
It my house that is NOT acceptable, and simply not going to happen.

good for you.
I suppose wearing a muzzle and antijump harness to prevent that would be maintenence.

WTF? cleaning up after myself and not living like a pig is my idea of maintenance.
But regardless, it's a BIG deal.

for you. you don't get to decide what's a big deal for others, though.

shelly http://www.cat-sidh.net
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com /
http://letters-to-esther.blogspot.com / (updated 7/10/05)
Most people in this forum are too interested in training to put up with it.

You've taken a poll?

Why the attitude?
It's common sense. Most of the people who hang out on dog groups spend a lot of time training and working with their dogs, and they don't just decide to "live with it" if their dog pulls like a train and drags them down the street.
Generally people try to teach some basic manners. I don't think I have to "take a poll" to know that. Obviously, that doesn't mean that all of our dogs have achieved perfection in the training department, and I'm sure they all pull occasionally. But I know a lot of dog owners, and I don't know ANYONE who is willing to put up with their dog pulling them down the street on a regular basis. They try to do something about it, with varying degrees of success.
It's common sense. Most of the people who hang out on dog groups spend a lot of time training and working with their dogs,[/nq]I'm actually not sure even that's true. I would guess it's not. And I would point out that my guess is just that - a guess, based on what I've seen. There are serious, accomplished trainers here and people who just love their dogs a lot and want to talk to other dog owners but don't necessarily care much about training beyond what's needed to make the dog easy to live with (and that's a standard that varies a lot by individual).

And then there are the people who just stop by with problems that they're having difficulty solving and who have nobody to turn to. I would actually guess (<- that word again) that they're in the numerical majority, even though they don't post as often as the regulars. But even some of the regulars are pretty casual about what they expect from their dogs.

Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed)

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
It's common sense. Most of the people who hang out on dog groups spend a lot of time training and ... don't just decide to "live with it" if their dog pulls like a train and drags them down the street.

you know this, how, exactly?
Generally people try to teach some basic manners.

what, exactly, are "basic manners"?
i'm reminded of Jane and her dear Pies. was it Mudpie who would climb on top of the stove and clean the pots and pans? i defy anyone to accuse her of having poorly trained dogs or dogs with no basic manners.
They try to do something about it, with varying degrees of success.

um, so is Tara.

shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com /
http://letters-to-esther.blogspot.com / (updated 7/10/05)
in thread "Janet Puistonen" (Email Removed) whittled the following words:
Why the attitude? It's common sense. Most of the people who hang out on dog groups spend a lot of ... don't just decide to "live with it" if their dog pulls like a train and drags them down the street.

You'd be surprised at the number of people who aren't into training who are here. They are interested in put-downs. We even have a trainer here who trains for a living and didn't know how to properly fit and use a choke chain. Sets the bar for real high level of "EXPERTS" doesn't it?

Attitude abounds. When you tell what your dog does routinely, they are so unbelieving that a dog can be trained to that level, they consider it mythical.
And you see people giving advice here whose dogs counter surf, whose dogs shred bedrooms, and do other things that just make you cringe, and then you realize rpdb is all about attitude and they actually do very little training of dogs. Which is why they have all this time to play on computers and talk about it. They ran off the experts with their attitude a VERY long time ago, and should one peek in, they gang together and make sure they run them off. They can't have a bigger fish in their little pond than they are.
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