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LOL+LOL+LOL

I can't say I'm surprised that you'd find it laugh-worthy.
Hell's bells! "...beating your dogs into submission"! (I can't stop laughing!) Is that the impression I gave?

I did leave the quoted material intact. Hitting a dog with an object until it "submits" or until it is "scared straight" is not only counter-productive, but it's abusive.
Maybe I left out too many details!?

Actually, I don't think the addition of more details will help matters.
But I specifically state "the goal is not to harm them, but to scare them straight." LOL Beating them into submission! Almost ROF!

That you don't recognize that as abusive and counter-productive is kind of mind-boggling.
pastawyo, the idea is to frighten the aggressor into believing that (1.) he is in danger; (2.) his aggression is unacceptable and has negative consequences.

And that's really, really bad advice.
For what it's worth, you can substitute the rolled up newspaper, fly swatter or broom with a cotton ball or ... makes the difference to your dog. The props merely add to the effect and aren't used for striking your dog.

You left out the part about not actually hitting the dog in your previous post. But even then, I think it's really crappy advice. Scaring a dog who is in attack mode is a dumb idea, and is likely to end in the dog biting a human. Do you really want to see a dog killed because the owner was ignorant enough to follow your advice?

Shelly (Warning: see label for details)
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
Robin, you're generally more objective than Shelly, and a good source of information. So, please, explain why my advice is "really STOOPID advice.". Please, teach all of us. :-)

One might surmise that, since she said "ditto," that she agreed with the reasons I gave for why your advice was, and I quote, "really STOOPID advice."

Shelly (Warning: see label for details)
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
...Ditto, ditto, ditto! Totally and completely disregard Michael's really STOOPID advice.

Robin, you're generally more objective than Shelly, and a good source of information. So, please, explain why my advice is "really STOOPID advice.". Please, teach all of us. :-)

Whacking your dog with an object is number one on that list. Thinking that "scaring them straight" is effective is number two.

Diagnosing and giving detailed advice on how to "fix" it when you haven't met the dogs and don't know the whole situation well, that would be number three. But really, the whole post was just idiotically bad advice on every angle.
I'm not anti-correction, but your post was STOOPID.
I'm not anti-correction, but your post was STOOPID.

yup. re: flyswatters. YEARS ago, I was in a Novice obedience class with my first Golden. At the time, the club met one night a week in a HS gym. 4-6 rings at the same time. There was someone with a Std Poodle in either a Basic or Advanced Basic class, who used a fly swatter on her dog. UGH! Every time she did, my Golden flinched. Needless to say, nothing like that had ever been used on him, but the owner of the Std made so much noise when she did it, and the dog reacted so much, that Teddy was not happy it was going on. Out of sight stays were something he had trouble with initially, because she was in the next ring, smacking her dog.

Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Out of sight stays were something he had trouble with initially, because she was in the next ring, smacking her dog.

Ugh.
I've never hit a dog with a fly swatter. I've never hit Harriet, period, except when playing "puppy drums." Yet, when I have used a fly swatter in her vicinity, she has lost her everloving mind. We're talking pee everywhere while skittering away to cower in her crate. Obviously, flies do not get swatted in my house.

Shelly (Warning: see label for details)
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
I'm not anti-correction, but your post was STOOPID.

yup. re: flyswatters. YEARS ago, I was in a Novice obedience class with my first Golden. At the time, the ... of sight stays were something he had trouble with initially, because she was in the next ring, smacking her dog.

One of our local training facilities has students buy 2 liter coke bottles and empty them, then use them to whack the dog when it's out of line. It's completely unbelieveable. This woman has a big "rep" because she's been teaching for eons and has a little training ditty spot on a local variety show that's a favorite of the over 60 crowd. Huge classes of dogs crammed into a tiny building, all whacking them with bottles. As far as I'm concerned it's outright cruelty.
I have some friends who started out with this woman (quite a few actually) and they say their dogs used to quake in terror even coming in sight of the building, even though they didn't use the bottles. Most of the dogs who survived that experience have lifelong issues because of it.
I have some friends who started out with this woman (quite a few actually) and they say their dogs used ... though they didn't use the bottles. Most of the dogs who survived that experience have lifelong issues because of it.

I believe it. I don't get it. Some field trainers use plastic bats for various things. Thanks, but no thanks. Whacking dogs is not an option. The only time I can figure that I could even think about doing anything like it, would be if I had to physically fight a dog off me or another dog, and the dog wasn't mine/no other people around kind of thing. I've been in a lot of dog situations over the years, and never needed to think about it, so I guess I'm pretty safe not having to!

Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Ditto, ditto, ditto! Totally and completely disregard Michael's really STOOPID advice.

Well, I dunno. I think that Michael was probably making an effort to be provocative with that "alpha" crap, but on the management side of the management/training dichotomy, the dog has to understand that if it gets into a fight it will die a painful, certain death. That's true of any dog that gets into a fight, BTW, and not just the one who "started" it (I put "started" in sneer quotes because it's not always as clear as we'd like - sometimes the dog that was attacked had been provoking the other dog). In terms of escalation, once they're actually fighting there's not a lot of room for things to get worse.
But on the other hand, there are a lot of reasons that dogs fight and trying to diagnose causes and prescribe treatment from a casual description on a Usenet newsgroup is very irresponsible. Fighting is serious stuff and unless you really know what you're doing, call in a professional. Mishandling the situation can lead to more fighting, not less.

Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed)

Sending more troops into a war is properly called an "escalation."
Do you really want to see a dog killed because the owner was ignorant enough to follow your advice?

At the shelter, dogs get to live because I do what I've suggested here today; only I never use more than a kennel leash.
Maybe I've used the wrong terms here today; I don't know. The response has certainly been well entertained! :-) I guess most folks would slink away into oblivion at this point. They might feel foolish and embarrassed, but I do my volunteer work, just inches from the viewing public,under the watchful eyes of the shelter staff, and no one has every accused me of being anything, but loving and effective. In fact, the kennel master invites me to work with dogs that are too maladjusted to be offered to the public. Almost 100% of the time, they do receive their chance for adoption because I performed the sort of things I suggested here today.
I worked with a return to shelter dog today. Dutchess came in grouchy, but calmed down enough to get adopted. That family returned her because she was too energetic. When I went to visit her today, she wanted to bite me. By the time I left her run, she wanted me to stay and play. She was adopted again today.
I'll have peace of mind and heart tonight.

Every dog is an individual, as is their guardian: no single training method works for all.
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