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ha, fair enough.
Didn't mean to be curt and conceited before. Hope I didn't sound that way, I was just in a hurry.
I've taken a couple behavioral pyschology classes (one undergrad one grad) and got that info from there as well as experience. There are two main areas that Pavlov, Skinner, et al have been applied animal training and education. My experience falls mainly into the latter. While teaching children and teaching dogs are markedly different, the BP side of things is actually quite similar. You can TELL kids what you want and you can't do that with dogs. But on the other hand, kids will do things for totally different reasons. Dogs do things for three or four reasons: they want food, they want water, they want sex, they want to make you happy/attention. If only kids were that simple. Haha.
Anyways, while my ratios may be pulled out of the air, the basic point is if you (general "you") find yourself using more punishment than reinforcer, something is probably wrong with your techniques. If the dog isn't doing what you want it to do, it probably just doesn't KNOW what you want.
Dogs do things for three or four reasons: they want food, they want water, they want sex, they want to make you happy/attention.

Our dogs aren't that simple. They have a lot of reasons to do things that have nothing to do with the above mentioned triggers. To think that such a limited list of needs drives dog behavior doesn't speak to much behavioral observation, IMO.
Didn't mean to be curt and conceited before. Hope I didn't sound thatway, I was just in a hurry. I've taken a couple behavioral pyschology classes (one undergrad one grad) and got that info from there as well as experience.

wonderful!
There are two main
areas that Pavlov, Skinner, et al have been applied animal training and education. My experience falls mainly into the latter.

mine are just about even keel. In fact, I teach problem kids and parents how to shape animal behavior at local animal shelters; and then I shape the people towards generalizing what they learn with the animals to people so that they can more consciously shape each other (and have productive stable families who are more consciously aware of the real consequences of their own actions and operations on their environments).

While teaching
children and teaching dogs are markedly different, the BP side of thingsis actually quite similar. You can TELL kids what you want and you can't do that with dogs.

you've done clicker training and read "Verbal Behavior"?
But on the other hand, kids will do things for totally
different reasons. Dogs do things for three or four reasons: they want food, they want water, they want sex, they want to make youhappy/attention. If only kids were that simple. Haha.

well, what are the different reasons? this deserves a thread in and of itself I think.
Anyways, while my ratios may be pulled out of the air, the basic point isif you (general "you") find yourself using more punishment than reinforcer, something is probably wrong with your techniques.

naturally.
If the dog isn't doing
what you want it to do, it probably just doesn't KNOW what you want.

very true.
cheers,
chad
Our dogs aren't that simple. They have a lot of reasons to do things that have nothing to do with the above mentioned triggers. To think that such a limited list of needs drives dog behavior doesn't speak to much behavioral observation, IMO.

Well please expand on the list. I have no ego-based desire to keep such a list at 4 things.
mine are just about even keel. In fact, I teach problem kids and parents how to shape animal behavior at ... stable families who are more consciously aware of the real consequences of their own actions and operations on their environments).

I saw an episode of Dogs With Jobs (on the Nat Geo channel) where they profiled a group called Kids and Canines in the Tampa area. They were middle schools kids and were enrolled in a class that I assume was about 9-18 weeks in length. Their job was the care for as well as train these dogs to become assist dogs. It was very touching.
you've done clicker training and read "Verbal Behavior"?

No I haven't but plan to with the puppy we plan on getting. Once I start, I imagine I'll get our "old" dog into the act as well.
If only kids were that simple. Haha.

well, what are the different reasons? this deserves a thread in and of itself I think.

Well kids might misbehave in order to *** off their parents, or because they don't want to be perceived as the "teacher's pet" pardon the pun. I've yet to see a dog do that. Emotion: smile
Our dogs aren't that simple. They have a lot of ... drives dog behavior doesn't speak to much behavioral observation, IMO.

Well please expand on the list. I have no ego-based desire to keep such a list at 4 things.

Just a few
They want to protect themselves from harm
they want to protect pack members from harm
they want to protect territory from invasion
They want to attend to physical needs - they are itching so they scratch, or feel pressure in the bladder so they pee They want to attend to the needs of their young, provide food, stimulate bowels, teach them socially acceptable behavior
They seek social interaction
Diane Blackman
great! I hope you get a video and also read Don't Shoot the Dog, by Karen Pryor.
well, what are the different reasons? this deserves a thread in and of itself I think.

Well kids might misbehave in order to *** off their parents, or because they don't want to be perceived as the "teacher's pet" pardon the pun.I've yet to see a dog do that. Emotion: smile

Hm. I see your point. However, I have seen dogs that apparently find getting other dogs riled up reinforcing. Espcially other dogs that cannot get at them because they are on a leash or behind a fence. It looks like "taunting" to me (at the risk of anthropomorphization).

And as far as the teacher's pet thing, you're right dogs are not under the control of such subtle environmental contingencies. However, I think at the base of it the primary motivations are truly at the heart of what motivates all animal species, dog and human alike. The only real difference I see is that humans appear to come under the control of more complex conditioning and associations with those primary reinforcers (food, sex, water, touch, social reinforcement, etc.).
In my opinion the "smarter" you are, the greater number of things you'll be under the control of (and hence, the greater number of things you'll control).
Hm. I see your point. However, I have seen dogs that apparently find getting other dogs riled up reinforcing. Espcially other dogs that cannot get at them because they are on a leash or behind a fence.

Instead of "they want to please us" I should rephrase that to reflect more of their pack mentality. That would then explain your observations. Dogs, obviously, don't like to play with just us, for example. They enjoy playing with other dogs as well. A work in progress this is. . .
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